Hey Chris, I'm unable to login to the wiki anymore (maybe something to do with the upgrade). I created an account again (username: vinodkone, email:[email protected]). Would you mind granting me the karma again? Sorry for the trouble.
Also, is it possible for non-committers to be given wiki access. I'm looking into giving edit access to our GSOC intern for example. On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < [email protected]> wrote: > Hey Vinod, > > I went ahead and added perms individually for you on the wiki. > Let me know if that worked. > > Cheers, > Chris > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Senior Computer Scientist > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > Email: [email protected] > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: <Mattmann>, jpluser <[email protected]> > Reply-To: "[email protected]" <[email protected] > > > Date: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:37 PM > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > > >Hey Vinod, > > > >I can assign individual permission to you I think, but I can't modify > >the mesos-committers group. > > > >I'll raise an issue with infra@ and see if they can give me the ability > >to modify the mesos-committers group (wiki admin perms). I have space > >admin perms atm. > > > >Cheers, > >Chris > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >Senior Computer Scientist > >NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >Email: [email protected] > >WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >Reply-To: "[email protected]" > ><[email protected]> > >Date: Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:13 PM > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > > > >>Btw Chris, do you have the ability to grant me edit access for the mesos > >>wiki page? I would like to use it to capture some stuff (e.g., new > >>feature > >>design)? If you don't I can create an INFRA ticket? > >> > >> > >>On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>[email protected]> wrote: > >> > >>> Heya Vinod, > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> > >>> From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >>> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >>><[email protected] > >>> > > >>> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 3:12 PM > >>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >>> > >>> >Thanks Chris for your POV. I think we all agree that Wiki is more user > >>> >friendly than git. But my (and likely others) concerns are > >>> > > >>> >1) If docs are editable on both wiki and git, then which one is the > >>> >authoritative source? If one of them goes stale, which one should the > >>> >user/contributor refer to? > >>> > >>> Great question -- why does one have to be the authoritative source over > >>> the other? It's quite possible that they won't have overlapping > >>>content. > >>> And if they do, it really only costs us an email to a (potentially > >>> confused) > >>> user pointing them at the right source. This requires us to be active > >>>on > >>> the dev lists and responsive and looking to help -- Mesos right now > >>> definitely > >>> fits that bill. I'm sure you or Ben H or Ben M or Andy or anyone else > >>> (even me!) :) > >>> may be able to point peeps in the right direction on that. > >>> > >>> > > >>> >2) How to keep the docs in sync? If some one edits the docs in the > >>>wiki, > >>> >how do we get it into our git repo? This involves PMC/Committer to > >>> >shepherd > >>> >no? Then why not involve pmc/committer early and circumvent the wiki > >>>edit? > >>> > >>> Who sez they have to be in sync? Like I said they could be overlapping > >>> content, > >>> or not. If they are overlapping then one can grow stale but I would > >>> estimate the > >>> cost function for that to be minimal. And it may be driven by our own > >>> interest > >>> to fix this or we may have some superstar user that fixes it for us > >>>that we > >>> then nominate for PMC and then sign them up for this fantastic task > >>>(heh). > >>> > >>> > > >>> >3) How easy is it to associate documentation to releases in Wiki? Its > >>> >straightforward when we work in the repo. > >>> > >>> +1 release docs shipping with releases makes perfect sense to me. No > >>>reason > >>> though that there can't be complementary (even overlapping) docs on the > >>> wiki. > >>> No biggie. > >>> > >>> > > >>> >Maybe, one way we could let users use wiki to contribute is, if there > >>>is > >>> >tooling available that can generate a ReviewBoard patch when someone > >>>edits > >>> >a wiki, ala github pull request to RB patch? > >>> > >>> Haha, yikes that sounds like work for you guys (PMC) that you don't > >>>need > >>> to do. > >>> Let users and contributors edit the wiki to the hearts content and > >>>improve > >>> Apache > >>> Mesos doc. The policies/procedures for what's canonical/etc. in those > >>>docs > >>> can be > >>> less formal and more based on social norms; users' actual comments; and > >>> improvements > >>> that make sense to expend resources working on. > >>> > >>> > > >>> >P.S: Open office's how to contribute to > >>> >wiki< > >>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_ > >>> >Policy> > >>> >looks > >>> >pretty ominous to me :) > >>> > >>> Hehe, same to me! /me ducks from the Apache Ooo PMC members sneaking > >>> around on this list lol > >>> > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >>> Senior Computer Scientist > >>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >>> Email: [email protected] > >>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> >On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>> >[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> Hi Dave, > >>> >> > >>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>> >> > >>> >> From: Dave Lester <[email protected]> > >>> >> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >>> >><[email protected] > >>> >> > > >>> >> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 11:26 AM > >>> >> To: "[email protected]" > >>><[email protected]> > >>> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >>> >> > >>> >> >On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>> >> >[email protected]> wrote: > >>> >> > > >>> >> >> I would just do both. Let contributions and time > >>> >> >> decide; rather than just picking one. > >>> >> > > >>> >> > > >>> >> >I disagree. In this case I see two distinct concerns related to > >>> >> >documentation and the wiki: 1) making it clear and simple for how > >>>to > >>> >> >contribute to the project documentation, and 2) making it easy to > >>>use > >>> >>the > >>> >> >documentation and get started with Mesos. > >>> >> > >>> >> And: > >>> >> > >>> >> 3) Enabling contribution to documentation (which is different from > >>>#1 > >>> >> [making > >>> >> it clear] and from #2 [using the documentation]) > >>> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> >I personally think the latter concern much more pressing for user > >>> >>growth > >>> >> >at > >>> >> >this time, although I do think both are important to consider. Do > >>> >>others > >>> >> >think the former is more important? > >>> >> > >>> >> I'm of the mindset having been around the foundation since 2005-, > >>>and a > >>> >> number > >>> >> of projects that each (shipping docs with release; and keeping docs > >>>in > >>> >> wiki) has > >>> >> their benefits and use cases. The latter allows documentation to > >>>evolve > >>> >> much more > >>> >> rapidly and also visually (e.g., through editors like Confluence); > >>> >>whereas > >>> >> the > >>> >> former requires someone with commit/PMC bit to shepherd the > >>> >>documentation > >>> >> into > >>> >> the sources [giving them the potential for them to be quite stale as > >>> >>those > >>> >> sources > >>> >> become stale]. > >>> >> > >>> >> However the above is a straw man.I see advantages to both and have > >>>lived > >>> >> them > >>> >> through in a number of high and low profile open source projects. > >>> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> > As a developer who is getting starting with Mesos, having multiple > >>> >> >sources > >>> >> >of truth for the project (documentation stored in git, and also the > >>> >>wiki) > >>> >> >could be frustrating. > >>> >> > >>> >> Note the key word above *could*. We don't have people constantly > >>>coming > >>> >>to > >>> >> the mailing lists complaining about this delineation. And if they > >>>did, I > >>> >> would > >>> >> suggest to them the same (and it really depends on what their role > >>>is in > >>> >> the > >>> >> project -- are they PMC/committer yet? are they simply a user?, > >>>etc.) > >>> >> > >>> >> Take for example Apache Open Office -- a very formal PMC > >>>organization > >>> >> rightly so > >>> >> due to the diversity of types and kinds of contributions -- and due > >>>to > >>> >>the > >>> >> fact that their community wants the model that way. Imagine the > >>> >>rate/types > >>> >> of > >>> >> documentation contribution and from all over the world with > >>> >> internationalization > >>> >> etc that they receive. Keeping docs in sources would be quite > >>>difficult > >>> >>if > >>> >> updating those docs required the contributors to be PMC or committer > >>>- > >>> >> especially > >>> >> in the case that they receive non technical documentation and > >>> >> contributions from > >>> >> people that will never touch SVN or Git, like ever. But they write > >>> >> documentation in > >>> >> e.g., some editor or wiki, and then contribute it separate of the > >>> >>release > >>> >> cycle of > >>> >> the system. > >>> >> > >>> >> On the opposite extreme end, in a project with very small sources; > >>>high > >>> >> rate of > >>> >> commit; tons of inclusivity; I can see saying look we want docs only > >>>in > >>> >> sources, > >>> >> we don't need a wiki being a decent choice. Until the first user > >>>that > >>> >> cares nothing > >>> >> about the sources, but only the binary, and that writes a great > >>>tutorial > >>> >> on the > >>> >> software and wants to share it comes along. Then what's the use > >>>case? > >>> >>That > >>> >> tutorial > >>> >> has to be shepherded or brought into the sources by a committer or > >>>PMC > >>> >> member, creating > >>> >> more work. When instead, that user could have gone to a wiki, turned > >>>the > >>> >> editor on, > >>> >> dumped their doc into it, clicked save, and been done. It's in our > >>> >> advantage to have > >>> >> the docs here on ASF hardware and the bits here, in whatever form > >>>they > >>> >> manifest (wiki; > >>> >> *.md files in Git, etc.) > >>> >> > >>> >> Mesos isn't on either end of these opposites, and is more in-between > >>> >>like > >>> >> most > >>> >> projects are. For that reason along with numerous others I've > >>>suggested, > >>> >> it probably > >>> >> makes sense to support both. > >>> >> > >>> >> Beyond this, it's also not a question of "shutting down" > >>>documentation > >>> >>on > >>> >> the wiki. > >>> >> That's not something really that should be dictated, nor is it very > >>> >> community friendly. > >>> >> I'm involved with the project, if for nothing else than teaching the > >>> >> Apache way, vote'ing > >>> >> on releases and mentoring. I enjoy the wiki, a lot more than I do > >>> >>checking > >>> >> out a source > >>> >> tree, running a few git commands and then update/pushing it and > >>>waiting > >>> >> for it to appear > >>> >> on some site. For that reason that there is at least 1 person on the > >>> >> project that likes > >>> >> a wiki, I'd ask, VOTE'ing to declare one versus the other defunct or > >>>not > >>> >> isn't very > >>> >> friendly to me or anyone else that likes the wiki. I'd ask: what > >>>happens > >>> >> if everyone > >>> >> +1s the Git docs, and -1s me? What should I do then? Stop putting > >>>stuff > >>> >>on > >>> >> the wiki? > >>> >> What if it discourages me from contributing docs? Is that good for > >>> >>Mesos? > >>> >> Or the community? > >>> >> > >>> >> >There's no search between the docs and wiki, and I'm > >>> >> >not clear if there is a distinction between where I would go to > >>>answer > >>> >> >specific questions. When contributing documentation, I'm also not > >>>sure > >>> >> >which source I would contribute to. > >>> >> > >>> >> Hypothetical, let's support this with real use cases and data and > >>> >>address > >>> >> this issue should it arise when we have dozens of people beating our > >>> >>door > >>> >> down for searching across the wiki and docs -- furthermore, I'd > >>>actually > >>> >> suggest that in fact you can search across both, with Google. Google > >>> >> indexes > >>> >> Apache's Confluence deployment; as do they index our Git and SVN > >>>repos > >>> >>and > >>> >> the content inside. So, you can actually search across both. B/c > >>>Google > >>> >>is > >>> >> a > >>> >> horizontal search engine and not vertical, it's harder, but it can > >>>be > >>> >>done. > >>> >> > >>> >> > > >>> >> >I'm in favor of using just one source. If making it easy to use the > >>> >> >documentation is the priority then I think rendering markdown files > >>>is > >>> >>a > >>> >> >fine approach for now. > >>> >> > >>> >> My honest suggestion: put your time and effort into improving what > >>>you'd > >>> >> like > >>> >> (the source docs), and let me and anyone else that wants to put > >>>stuff on > >>> >> the > >>> >> wiki do our thing too. Then, beyond that, let's add a link on both: > >>>(1) > >>> >> from > >>> >> the wiki to git: Apache src docs; and from src docs to the wiki. > >>>Done. > >>> >> > >>> >> Cheers, > >>> >> Chris > >>> >> > >>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >>> >> Senior Computer Scientist > >>> >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >>> >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >>> >> Email: [email protected] > >>> >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >>> >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> >> > >>> > >>> > > > >
