No problem Chris. And thanks for adding me back!
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < [email protected]> wrote: > Sorry Vinod, something was up and I added you back hopefully that fixes > it. No trouble at all and sorry it took me a while to reply. Have been > in Washington DC all week for DARPA and was basically cranking and getting > work done and getting underwater with emails. > > Cheers, > Chris > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > Senior Computer Scientist > NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > Email: [email protected] > WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > Date: Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:53 AM > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, > jpluser <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > > >Hey Chris, > > > > > >I'm unable to login to the wiki anymore (maybe something to do with the > >upgrade). I created an account again (username: vinodkone, > >email:[email protected] <mailto:email%[email protected]>). Would > >you mind granting me the karma again? Sorry for the trouble. > > > > > >Also, is it possible for non-committers to be given wiki access. I'm > >looking into giving edit access to our GSOC intern for example. > > > > > > > >On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) > ><[email protected]> wrote: > > > >Hey Vinod, > > > >I went ahead and added perms individually for you on the wiki. > >Let me know if that worked. > > > >Cheers, > >Chris > > > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >Senior Computer Scientist > >NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >Email: [email protected] > >WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > > >From: <Mattmann>, jpluser <[email protected]> > >Reply-To: "[email protected]" > ><[email protected]> > >Date: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:37 PM > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > > > >>Hey Vinod, > >> > >>I can assign individual permission to you I think, but I can't modify > >>the mesos-committers group. > >> > >>I'll raise an issue with infra@ and see if they can give me the ability > >>to modify the mesos-committers group (wiki admin perms). I have space > >>admin perms atm. > >> > >>Cheers, > >>Chris > >> > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >>Senior Computer Scientist > >>NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >>Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >>Email: [email protected] > >>WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >>University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >>Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >><[email protected]> > >>Date: Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:13 PM > >>To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >>Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >> > >>>Btw Chris, do you have the ability to grant me edit access for the mesos > >>>wiki page? I would like to use it to capture some stuff (e.g., new > >>>feature > >>>design)? If you don't I can create an INFRA ticket? > >>> > >>> > >>>On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>>[email protected]> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Heya Vinod, > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> > >>>> From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> > >>>> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >>>><[email protected] > >>>> > > >>>> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 3:12 PM > >>>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >>>> > >>>> >Thanks Chris for your POV. I think we all agree that Wiki is more > >>>>user > >>>> >friendly than git. But my (and likely others) concerns are > >>>> > > >>>> >1) If docs are editable on both wiki and git, then which one is the > >>>> >authoritative source? If one of them goes stale, which one should the > >>>> >user/contributor refer to? > >>>> > >>>> Great question -- why does one have to be the authoritative source > >>>>over > >>>> the other? It's quite possible that they won't have overlapping > >>>>content. > >>>> And if they do, it really only costs us an email to a (potentially > >>>> confused) > >>>> user pointing them at the right source. This requires us to be active > >>>>on > >>>> the dev lists and responsive and looking to help -- Mesos right now > >>>> definitely > >>>> fits that bill. I'm sure you or Ben H or Ben M or Andy or anyone else > >>>> (even me!) :) > >>>> may be able to point peeps in the right direction on that. > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> >2) How to keep the docs in sync? If some one edits the docs in the > >>>>wiki, > >>>> >how do we get it into our git repo? This involves PMC/Committer to > >>>> >shepherd > >>>> >no? Then why not involve pmc/committer early and circumvent the wiki > >>>>edit? > >>>> > >>>> Who sez they have to be in sync? Like I said they could be overlapping > >>>> content, > >>>> or not. If they are overlapping then one can grow stale but I would > >>>> estimate the > >>>> cost function for that to be minimal. And it may be driven by our own > >>>> interest > >>>> to fix this or we may have some superstar user that fixes it for us > >>>>that we > >>>> then nominate for PMC and then sign them up for this fantastic task > >>>>(heh). > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> >3) How easy is it to associate documentation to releases in Wiki? Its > >>>> >straightforward when we work in the repo. > >>>> > >>>> +1 release docs shipping with releases makes perfect sense to me. No > >>>>reason > >>>> though that there can't be complementary (even overlapping) docs on > >>>>the > >>>> wiki. > >>>> No biggie. > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> >Maybe, one way we could let users use wiki to contribute is, if there > >>>>is > >>>> >tooling available that can generate a ReviewBoard patch when someone > >>>>edits > >>>> >a wiki, ala github pull request to RB patch? > >>>> > >>>> Haha, yikes that sounds like work for you guys (PMC) that you don't > >>>>need > >>>> to do. > >>>> Let users and contributors edit the wiki to the hearts content and > >>>>improve > >>>> Apache > >>>> Mesos doc. The policies/procedures for what's canonical/etc. in those > >>>>docs > >>>> can be > >>>> less formal and more based on social norms; users' actual comments; > >>>>and > >>>> improvements > >>>> that make sense to expend resources working on. > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> >P.S: Open office's how to contribute to > >>>> >wiki< > >>>> > >http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_ > ><http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_> > >>>> >Policy> > >>>> >looks > >>>> >pretty ominous to me :) > >>>> > >>>> Hehe, same to me! /me ducks from the Apache Ooo PMC members sneaking > >>>> around on this list lol > >>>> > >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >>>> Senior Computer Scientist > >>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >>>> Email: [email protected] > >>>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> >On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>>> >[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> > > >>>> >> Hi Dave, > >>>> >> > >>>> >> -----Original Message----- > >>>> >> > >>>> >> From: Dave Lester <[email protected]> > >>>> >> Reply-To: "[email protected]" > >>>> >><[email protected] > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 11:26 AM > >>>> >> To: "[email protected]" > >>>><[email protected]> > >>>> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < > >>>> >> >[email protected]> wrote: > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> >> I would just do both. Let contributions and time > >>>> >> >> decide; rather than just picking one. > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> >I disagree. In this case I see two distinct concerns related to > >>>> >> >documentation and the wiki: 1) making it clear and simple for how > >>>>to > >>>> >> >contribute to the project documentation, and 2) making it easy to > >>>>use > >>>> >>the > >>>> >> >documentation and get started with Mesos. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> And: > >>>> >> > >>>> >> 3) Enabling contribution to documentation (which is different from > >>>>#1 > >>>> >> [making > >>>> >> it clear] and from #2 [using the documentation]) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> >I personally think the latter concern much more pressing for user > >>>> >>growth > >>>> >> >at > >>>> >> >this time, although I do think both are important to consider. Do > >>>> >>others > >>>> >> >think the former is more important? > >>>> >> > >>>> >> I'm of the mindset having been around the foundation since 2005-, > >>>>and a > >>>> >> number > >>>> >> of projects that each (shipping docs with release; and keeping docs > >>>>in > >>>> >> wiki) has > >>>> >> their benefits and use cases. The latter allows documentation to > >>>>evolve > >>>> >> much more > >>>> >> rapidly and also visually (e.g., through editors like Confluence); > >>>> >>whereas > >>>> >> the > >>>> >> former requires someone with commit/PMC bit to shepherd the > >>>> >>documentation > >>>> >> into > >>>> >> the sources [giving them the potential for them to be quite stale > >>>>as > >>>> >>those > >>>> >> sources > >>>> >> become stale]. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> However the above is a straw man.I see advantages to both and have > >>>>lived > >>>> >> them > >>>> >> through in a number of high and low profile open source projects. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> > As a developer who is getting starting with Mesos, having > >>>>multiple > >>>> >> >sources > >>>> >> >of truth for the project (documentation stored in git, and also > >>>>the > >>>> >>wiki) > >>>> >> >could be frustrating. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Note the key word above *could*. We don't have people constantly > >>>>coming > >>>> >>to > >>>> >> the mailing lists complaining about this delineation. And if they > >>>>did, I > >>>> >> would > >>>> >> suggest to them the same (and it really depends on what their role > >>>>is in > >>>> >> the > >>>> >> project -- are they PMC/committer yet? are they simply a user?, > >>>>etc.) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Take for example Apache Open Office -- a very formal PMC > >>>>organization > >>>> >> rightly so > >>>> >> due to the diversity of types and kinds of contributions -- and due > >>>>to > >>>> >>the > >>>> >> fact that their community wants the model that way. Imagine the > >>>> >>rate/types > >>>> >> of > >>>> >> documentation contribution and from all over the world with > >>>> >> internationalization > >>>> >> etc that they receive. Keeping docs in sources would be quite > >>>>difficult > >>>> >>if > >>>> >> updating those docs required the contributors to be PMC or > >>>>committer > >>>>- > >>>> >> especially > >>>> >> in the case that they receive non technical documentation and > >>>> >> contributions from > >>>> >> people that will never touch SVN or Git, like ever. But they write > >>>> >> documentation in > >>>> >> e.g., some editor or wiki, and then contribute it separate of the > >>>> >>release > >>>> >> cycle of > >>>> >> the system. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> On the opposite extreme end, in a project with very small sources; > >>>>high > >>>> >> rate of > >>>> >> commit; tons of inclusivity; I can see saying look we want docs > >>>>only > >>>>in > >>>> >> sources, > >>>> >> we don't need a wiki being a decent choice. Until the first user > >>>>that > >>>> >> cares nothing > >>>> >> about the sources, but only the binary, and that writes a great > >>>>tutorial > >>>> >> on the > >>>> >> software and wants to share it comes along. Then what's the use > >>>>case? > >>>> >>That > >>>> >> tutorial > >>>> >> has to be shepherded or brought into the sources by a committer or > >>>>PMC > >>>> >> member, creating > >>>> >> more work. When instead, that user could have gone to a wiki, > >>>>turned > >>>>the > >>>> >> editor on, > >>>> >> dumped their doc into it, clicked save, and been done. It's in our > >>>> >> advantage to have > >>>> >> the docs here on ASF hardware and the bits here, in whatever form > >>>>they > >>>> >> manifest (wiki; > >>>> >> *.md files in Git, etc.) > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Mesos isn't on either end of these opposites, and is more > >>>>in-between > >>>> >>like > >>>> >> most > >>>> >> projects are. For that reason along with numerous others I've > >>>>suggested, > >>>> >> it probably > >>>> >> makes sense to support both. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Beyond this, it's also not a question of "shutting down" > >>>>documentation > >>>> >>on > >>>> >> the wiki. > >>>> >> That's not something really that should be dictated, nor is it very > >>>> >> community friendly. > >>>> >> I'm involved with the project, if for nothing else than teaching > >>>>the > >>>> >> Apache way, vote'ing > >>>> >> on releases and mentoring. I enjoy the wiki, a lot more than I do > >>>> >>checking > >>>> >> out a source > >>>> >> tree, running a few git commands and then update/pushing it and > >>>>waiting > >>>> >> for it to appear > >>>> >> on some site. For that reason that there is at least 1 person on > >>>>the > >>>> >> project that likes > >>>> >> a wiki, I'd ask, VOTE'ing to declare one versus the other defunct > >>>>or > >>>>not > >>>> >> isn't very > >>>> >> friendly to me or anyone else that likes the wiki. I'd ask: what > >>>>happens > >>>> >> if everyone > >>>> >> +1s the Git docs, and -1s me? What should I do then? Stop putting > >>>>stuff > >>>> >>on > >>>> >> the wiki? > >>>> >> What if it discourages me from contributing docs? Is that good for > >>>> >>Mesos? > >>>> >> Or the community? > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >There's no search between the docs and wiki, and I'm > >>>> >> >not clear if there is a distinction between where I would go to > >>>>answer > >>>> >> >specific questions. When contributing documentation, I'm also not > >>>>sure > >>>> >> >which source I would contribute to. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Hypothetical, let's support this with real use cases and data and > >>>> >>address > >>>> >> this issue should it arise when we have dozens of people beating > >>>>our > >>>> >>door > >>>> >> down for searching across the wiki and docs -- furthermore, I'd > >>>>actually > >>>> >> suggest that in fact you can search across both, with Google. > >>>>Google > >>>> >> indexes > >>>> >> Apache's Confluence deployment; as do they index our Git and SVN > >>>>repos > >>>> >>and > >>>> >> the content inside. So, you can actually search across both. B/c > >>>>Google > >>>> >>is > >>>> >> a > >>>> >> horizontal search engine and not vertical, it's harder, but it can > >>>>be > >>>> >>done. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > > >>>> >> >I'm in favor of using just one source. If making it easy to use > >>>>the > >>>> >> >documentation is the priority then I think rendering markdown > >>>>files > >>>>is > >>>> >>a > >>>> >> >fine approach for now. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> My honest suggestion: put your time and effort into improving what > >>>>you'd > >>>> >> like > >>>> >> (the source docs), and let me and anyone else that wants to put > >>>>stuff on > >>>> >> the > >>>> >> wiki do our thing too. Then, beyond that, let's add a link on both: > >>>>(1) > >>>> >> from > >>>> >> the wiki to git: Apache src docs; and from src docs to the wiki. > >>>>Done. > >>>> >> > >>>> >> Cheers, > >>>> >> Chris > >>>> >> > >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. > >>>> >> Senior Computer Scientist > >>>> >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA > >>>> >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 > >>>> >> Email: [email protected] > >>>> >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ > >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department > >>>> >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA > >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
