Sorry Vinod, something was up and I added you back hopefully that fixes it. No trouble at all and sorry it took me a while to reply. Have been in Washington DC all week for DARPA and was basically cranking and getting work done and getting underwater with emails.
Cheers, Chris ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. Senior Computer Scientist NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 Email: [email protected] WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ -----Original Message----- From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> Date: Thursday, June 27, 2013 11:53 AM To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>, jpluser <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki >Hey Chris, > > >I'm unable to login to the wiki anymore (maybe something to do with the >upgrade). I created an account again (username: vinodkone, >email:[email protected] <mailto:email%[email protected]>). Would >you mind granting me the karma again? Sorry for the trouble. > > >Also, is it possible for non-committers to be given wiki access. I'm >looking into giving edit access to our GSOC intern for example. > > > >On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 10:45 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) ><[email protected]> wrote: > >Hey Vinod, > >I went ahead and added perms individually for you on the wiki. >Let me know if that worked. > >Cheers, >Chris > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >Senior Computer Scientist >NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 >Email: [email protected] >WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department >University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: <Mattmann>, jpluser <[email protected]> >Reply-To: "[email protected]" ><[email protected]> >Date: Monday, June 17, 2013 5:37 PM >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki > >>Hey Vinod, >> >>I can assign individual permission to you I think, but I can't modify >>the mesos-committers group. >> >>I'll raise an issue with infra@ and see if they can give me the ability >>to modify the mesos-committers group (wiki admin perms). I have space >>admin perms atm. >> >>Cheers, >>Chris >> >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >>Senior Computer Scientist >>NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >>Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 >>Email: [email protected] >>WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department >>University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> >>Reply-To: "[email protected]" >><[email protected]> >>Date: Sunday, June 16, 2013 9:13 PM >>To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki >> >>>Btw Chris, do you have the ability to grant me edit access for the mesos >>>wiki page? I would like to use it to capture some stuff (e.g., new >>>feature >>>design)? If you don't I can create an INFRA ticket? >>> >>> >>>On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:19 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < >>>[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Heya Vinod, >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >>>> From: Vinod Kone <[email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: "[email protected]" >>>><[email protected] >>>> > >>>> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 3:12 PM >>>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki >>>> >>>> >Thanks Chris for your POV. I think we all agree that Wiki is more >>>>user >>>> >friendly than git. But my (and likely others) concerns are >>>> > >>>> >1) If docs are editable on both wiki and git, then which one is the >>>> >authoritative source? If one of them goes stale, which one should the >>>> >user/contributor refer to? >>>> >>>> Great question -- why does one have to be the authoritative source >>>>over >>>> the other? It's quite possible that they won't have overlapping >>>>content. >>>> And if they do, it really only costs us an email to a (potentially >>>> confused) >>>> user pointing them at the right source. This requires us to be active >>>>on >>>> the dev lists and responsive and looking to help -- Mesos right now >>>> definitely >>>> fits that bill. I'm sure you or Ben H or Ben M or Andy or anyone else >>>> (even me!) :) >>>> may be able to point peeps in the right direction on that. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >2) How to keep the docs in sync? If some one edits the docs in the >>>>wiki, >>>> >how do we get it into our git repo? This involves PMC/Committer to >>>> >shepherd >>>> >no? Then why not involve pmc/committer early and circumvent the wiki >>>>edit? >>>> >>>> Who sez they have to be in sync? Like I said they could be overlapping >>>> content, >>>> or not. If they are overlapping then one can grow stale but I would >>>> estimate the >>>> cost function for that to be minimal. And it may be driven by our own >>>> interest >>>> to fix this or we may have some superstar user that fixes it for us >>>>that we >>>> then nominate for PMC and then sign them up for this fantastic task >>>>(heh). >>>> >>>> > >>>> >3) How easy is it to associate documentation to releases in Wiki? Its >>>> >straightforward when we work in the repo. >>>> >>>> +1 release docs shipping with releases makes perfect sense to me. No >>>>reason >>>> though that there can't be complementary (even overlapping) docs on >>>>the >>>> wiki. >>>> No biggie. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >Maybe, one way we could let users use wiki to contribute is, if there >>>>is >>>> >tooling available that can generate a ReviewBoard patch when someone >>>>edits >>>> >a wiki, ala github pull request to RB patch? >>>> >>>> Haha, yikes that sounds like work for you guys (PMC) that you don't >>>>need >>>> to do. >>>> Let users and contributors edit the wiki to the hearts content and >>>>improve >>>> Apache >>>> Mesos doc. The policies/procedures for what's canonical/etc. in those >>>>docs >>>> can be >>>> less formal and more based on social norms; users' actual comments; >>>>and >>>> improvements >>>> that make sense to expend resources working on. >>>> >>>> > >>>> >P.S: Open office's how to contribute to >>>> >wiki< >>>> >http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_ ><http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/Dashboard/Wiki_Editing_> >>>> >Policy> >>>> >looks >>>> >pretty ominous to me :) >>>> >>>> Hehe, same to me! /me ducks from the Apache Ooo PMC members sneaking >>>> around on this list lol >>>> >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >>>> Senior Computer Scientist >>>> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >>>> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 >>>> Email: [email protected] >>>> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department >>>> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < >>>> >[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> >> Hi Dave, >>>> >> >>>> >> -----Original Message----- >>>> >> >>>> >> From: Dave Lester <[email protected]> >>>> >> Reply-To: "[email protected]" >>>> >><[email protected] >>>> >> > >>>> >> Date: Friday, June 14, 2013 11:26 AM >>>> >> To: "[email protected]" >>>><[email protected]> >>>> >> Subject: Re: [DISCUSS] Release process on wiki >>>> >> >>>> >> >On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (398J) < >>>> >> >[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >> > >>>> >> >> I would just do both. Let contributions and time >>>> >> >> decide; rather than just picking one. >>>> >> > >>>> >> > >>>> >> >I disagree. In this case I see two distinct concerns related to >>>> >> >documentation and the wiki: 1) making it clear and simple for how >>>>to >>>> >> >contribute to the project documentation, and 2) making it easy to >>>>use >>>> >>the >>>> >> >documentation and get started with Mesos. >>>> >> >>>> >> And: >>>> >> >>>> >> 3) Enabling contribution to documentation (which is different from >>>>#1 >>>> >> [making >>>> >> it clear] and from #2 [using the documentation]) >>>> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> >I personally think the latter concern much more pressing for user >>>> >>growth >>>> >> >at >>>> >> >this time, although I do think both are important to consider. Do >>>> >>others >>>> >> >think the former is more important? >>>> >> >>>> >> I'm of the mindset having been around the foundation since 2005-, >>>>and a >>>> >> number >>>> >> of projects that each (shipping docs with release; and keeping docs >>>>in >>>> >> wiki) has >>>> >> their benefits and use cases. The latter allows documentation to >>>>evolve >>>> >> much more >>>> >> rapidly and also visually (e.g., through editors like Confluence); >>>> >>whereas >>>> >> the >>>> >> former requires someone with commit/PMC bit to shepherd the >>>> >>documentation >>>> >> into >>>> >> the sources [giving them the potential for them to be quite stale >>>>as >>>> >>those >>>> >> sources >>>> >> become stale]. >>>> >> >>>> >> However the above is a straw man.I see advantages to both and have >>>>lived >>>> >> them >>>> >> through in a number of high and low profile open source projects. >>>> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> > As a developer who is getting starting with Mesos, having >>>>multiple >>>> >> >sources >>>> >> >of truth for the project (documentation stored in git, and also >>>>the >>>> >>wiki) >>>> >> >could be frustrating. >>>> >> >>>> >> Note the key word above *could*. We don't have people constantly >>>>coming >>>> >>to >>>> >> the mailing lists complaining about this delineation. And if they >>>>did, I >>>> >> would >>>> >> suggest to them the same (and it really depends on what their role >>>>is in >>>> >> the >>>> >> project -- are they PMC/committer yet? are they simply a user?, >>>>etc.) >>>> >> >>>> >> Take for example Apache Open Office -- a very formal PMC >>>>organization >>>> >> rightly so >>>> >> due to the diversity of types and kinds of contributions -- and due >>>>to >>>> >>the >>>> >> fact that their community wants the model that way. Imagine the >>>> >>rate/types >>>> >> of >>>> >> documentation contribution and from all over the world with >>>> >> internationalization >>>> >> etc that they receive. Keeping docs in sources would be quite >>>>difficult >>>> >>if >>>> >> updating those docs required the contributors to be PMC or >>>>committer >>>>- >>>> >> especially >>>> >> in the case that they receive non technical documentation and >>>> >> contributions from >>>> >> people that will never touch SVN or Git, like ever. But they write >>>> >> documentation in >>>> >> e.g., some editor or wiki, and then contribute it separate of the >>>> >>release >>>> >> cycle of >>>> >> the system. >>>> >> >>>> >> On the opposite extreme end, in a project with very small sources; >>>>high >>>> >> rate of >>>> >> commit; tons of inclusivity; I can see saying look we want docs >>>>only >>>>in >>>> >> sources, >>>> >> we don't need a wiki being a decent choice. Until the first user >>>>that >>>> >> cares nothing >>>> >> about the sources, but only the binary, and that writes a great >>>>tutorial >>>> >> on the >>>> >> software and wants to share it comes along. Then what's the use >>>>case? >>>> >>That >>>> >> tutorial >>>> >> has to be shepherded or brought into the sources by a committer or >>>>PMC >>>> >> member, creating >>>> >> more work. When instead, that user could have gone to a wiki, >>>>turned >>>>the >>>> >> editor on, >>>> >> dumped their doc into it, clicked save, and been done. It's in our >>>> >> advantage to have >>>> >> the docs here on ASF hardware and the bits here, in whatever form >>>>they >>>> >> manifest (wiki; >>>> >> *.md files in Git, etc.) >>>> >> >>>> >> Mesos isn't on either end of these opposites, and is more >>>>in-between >>>> >>like >>>> >> most >>>> >> projects are. For that reason along with numerous others I've >>>>suggested, >>>> >> it probably >>>> >> makes sense to support both. >>>> >> >>>> >> Beyond this, it's also not a question of "shutting down" >>>>documentation >>>> >>on >>>> >> the wiki. >>>> >> That's not something really that should be dictated, nor is it very >>>> >> community friendly. >>>> >> I'm involved with the project, if for nothing else than teaching >>>>the >>>> >> Apache way, vote'ing >>>> >> on releases and mentoring. I enjoy the wiki, a lot more than I do >>>> >>checking >>>> >> out a source >>>> >> tree, running a few git commands and then update/pushing it and >>>>waiting >>>> >> for it to appear >>>> >> on some site. For that reason that there is at least 1 person on >>>>the >>>> >> project that likes >>>> >> a wiki, I'd ask, VOTE'ing to declare one versus the other defunct >>>>or >>>>not >>>> >> isn't very >>>> >> friendly to me or anyone else that likes the wiki. I'd ask: what >>>>happens >>>> >> if everyone >>>> >> +1s the Git docs, and -1s me? What should I do then? Stop putting >>>>stuff >>>> >>on >>>> >> the wiki? >>>> >> What if it discourages me from contributing docs? Is that good for >>>> >>Mesos? >>>> >> Or the community? >>>> >> >>>> >> >There's no search between the docs and wiki, and I'm >>>> >> >not clear if there is a distinction between where I would go to >>>>answer >>>> >> >specific questions. When contributing documentation, I'm also not >>>>sure >>>> >> >which source I would contribute to. >>>> >> >>>> >> Hypothetical, let's support this with real use cases and data and >>>> >>address >>>> >> this issue should it arise when we have dozens of people beating >>>>our >>>> >>door >>>> >> down for searching across the wiki and docs -- furthermore, I'd >>>>actually >>>> >> suggest that in fact you can search across both, with Google. >>>>Google >>>> >> indexes >>>> >> Apache's Confluence deployment; as do they index our Git and SVN >>>>repos >>>> >>and >>>> >> the content inside. So, you can actually search across both. B/c >>>>Google >>>> >>is >>>> >> a >>>> >> horizontal search engine and not vertical, it's harder, but it can >>>>be >>>> >>done. >>>> >> >>>> >> > >>>> >> >I'm in favor of using just one source. If making it easy to use >>>>the >>>> >> >documentation is the priority then I think rendering markdown >>>>files >>>>is >>>> >>a >>>> >> >fine approach for now. >>>> >> >>>> >> My honest suggestion: put your time and effort into improving what >>>>you'd >>>> >> like >>>> >> (the source docs), and let me and anyone else that wants to put >>>>stuff on >>>> >> the >>>> >> wiki do our thing too. Then, beyond that, let's add a link on both: >>>>(1) >>>> >> from >>>> >> the wiki to git: Apache src docs; and from src docs to the wiki. >>>>Done. >>>> >> >>>> >> Cheers, >>>> >> Chris >>>> >> >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >> Chris Mattmann, Ph.D. >>>> >> Senior Computer Scientist >>>> >> NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory Pasadena, CA 91109 USA >>>> >> Office: 171-266B, Mailstop: 171-246 >>>> >> Email: [email protected] >>>> >> WWW: http://sunset.usc.edu/~mattmann/ >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >> Adjunct Assistant Professor, Computer Science Department >>>> >> University of Southern California, Los Angeles, CA 90089 USA >>>> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >>>> >> > > > > > > > >
