On 14 Jan, 12:10, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> One has to speculate in all this that poor old Chazzer has fallen for
> the ultimate anthropomorphic myth in all this. A few words with my
> old dog would have cured him. I rather like to think that Tom would
> have wanted to go out in the middle of a stolen bag of cakes caper (of
> which there were many), but old age got to him first. I'm not sure we
> can even claim to think with words Pat - some other gunk seems to go
> on in some brains, including thinking with shape. In the end, the
> idea that we only have a notion of a world that began with fossil
> record and memory "sometime" is needed for the totalising subjectivity
> of hard anthropomorphism - this at least lacks utility as all
> solipsisms do. Why would an unobserved tree bother to fall at all.
> let alone bleat out some noise?
>
If it's reached its time to fall, observed or unobserved, it will
fall. I agree, though, that we think in more than just words. As I
have memories that extend to a time BEFORE I could speak, I can
remember being able to form complete thoughts but also being accutely
aware that I could not relate them to anyone. I think most men should
be able to relate to thinking in shapes. If you doubt it, next time
you gaze at a woman from afar, note that it was her shape that you
FIRST pattern-matched to note that she was female in the first place.
> On 14 Jan, 10:50, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Inded Pat, and the reason I asked such questions was to highlight that
> > if a squirell was to witness such an event, and if it could talk to
> > us, it is fair to assume that when we asked wheter or not it is true
> > that a tree feel in the woods it would answer, why yes, yes it did.
>
> > On 14 Jan, 10:36, Pat <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On 13 Jan, 18:08, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Which in what way answers my questions?
>
> > > > If a tree falls in the woods and there are no humans there does it
> > > > make a sound?
>
> > > > What if the squirrels witnessed the tree falling, does it make a sound
> > > > then?
>
> > > And you know as well as I do, that the production of sound waves
> > > generated by a falling tree is not governed by the presence of audio
> > > equipment, whether artificial or biological of ANY species, to record
> > > the event. The dog could well think in 'barks' rather than words.
> > > And I'll happily admit my speculation. I feel pretty safe in the fact
> > > that the dog thinks. I think in words because (I assume) I use words
> > > to communicate to others of my species. Dogs bark to one another AND
> > > us (and, in turn, we 'speak' to dogs), so one might assume they think
> > > in barks. It's hardly a grand leap.
>
> > > > On 13 Jan, 17:46, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 13, 12:55 pm, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Heh and you really need to read each word and not just skim. Coz if
> > > > > > you had you would have seen these words:
>
> > > > > > 'The truth from my perspective is that I'm a wind up merchant.'
>
> > > > > > Thats me thinking not the dog. The truth as far as I'm concered is
> > > > > > that I first offer the dog a bone and then I take it away. The
> > > > > > truth
> > > > > > from the dogs perspective is that I first offer the dog a bone and
> > > > > > then I take it away. Or are you trying to tell me that dog actualy
> > > > > > has no knowledge of what actions I took, that the dog did not see,
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > smell the offered bone, nor witness the withdrawal of the bone, and
> > > > > > the in fact the dog by dint of it not being human had no concept of
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > nor bone at all?
>
> > > > > > Is the truth from my perspective not also the truth from the dogs?
>
> > > > > > Of course we can't know whether dogs have any concept of truth or
> > > > > > deception, but the point is the truth is not the truth because of an
> > > > > > ability to understand the word 'truth', it is true because it
> > > > > > actualy
> > > > > > happend.
>
> > > > > We can know that dog do not use words and cannot think in words.
>
> > > > > > On 12 Jan, 23:26, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 12, 5:49 pm, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Sorry Chaz I'm calling rubbish on this one.
>
> > > > > > > > If I give my dog a bone and them take it away from him. The
> > > > > > > > truth
> > > > > > > > from my perspective is that I'm a wind up merchant. Are you
> > > > > > > > saying
> > > > > > > > that the dog has no perception of the truth here? Did he not
> > > > > > > > witness
> > > > > > > > me offer and then take back the bone?
>
> > > > > > > Dog don't have truth because they don't use the word. Why would
> > > > > > > you
> > > > > > > imagine that the dog cashes this stuff out in "terms" of truth?
> > > > > > > Who
> > > > > > > knows what the dog thinks but one thing is for sure he does think
> > > > > > > "Lee
> > > > > > > is a wind-up merchant".
> > > > > > > You are talking rubbish.
>
> > > > > > > > On 12 Jan, 15:53, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > On Jan 11, 10:58 pm, Kierkecraig <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > Let me break down what you are saying.
> > > > > > > > > > Truth and God only exist in the human mind.
> > > > > > > > > > Both Truth and God are concepts which are effected by
> > > > > > > > > > evidence and
> > > > > > > > > > reason.
>
> > > > > > > > > > So if Truth is only in the human mind, then what are reason
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > evidence discovering? Are you defining truth as a value
> > > > > > > > > > judgment
> > > > > > > > > > about something "out there"? Or is truth the something
> > > > > > > > > > "out there"
> > > > > > > > > > that evidence and reason are trying to discover?
>
> > > > > > > > > I am defining it as the former. Truth is meaningless out side
> > > > > > > > > human
> > > > > > > > > perception.
> > > > > > > > > Without us there is no truth as there is no human to conceive
> > > > > > > > > of it.
>
> > > > > > > > > > On Jan 11, 10:50 am, chazwin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 10, 7:00 pm, Kierkecraig <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > Are they so assured that God does not exist but truth
> > > > > > > > > > > > does?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > Neither truth nor god exist outside of the human mind.
> > > > > > > > > > > Both are human
> > > > > > > > > > > concepts which rise or fall against the tides of evidence
> > > > > > > > > > > and reason.
> > > > > > > > > > > The main difference is that god has lost the argument but
> > > > > > > > > > > truth can
> > > > > > > > > > > still be found despite this simple fact.
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 10, 11:38 am, frantheman
> > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On 10 Jan., 19:30, Kierkecraig
> > > > > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:> Where do Atheists
> > > > > > > > > > > > > find such passion?
>
> > > > > > > > > > > > > In a love of truth ... and honesty?- Hide quoted text
> > > > > > > > > > > > > -
>
> > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
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> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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