It's funny that you think I want to impose gun laws on you Craig. We are lucky here that there are few guns about - though there are now far more in police hands. It seems to me you are more like some dreadful African state in the US. I wouldn't want to give my gun up. Your arguments fly in the face of the facts otherwise and you quickly project some pretty poor reasoning onto others in this area and a little caricature is quickly too much for you. I feel much the same way about the way we have to be restricted in many areas because of the actions of loonies and scumbags - and sometimes react as you do on this stuff. The gun situation in the US may be rather like the revolutions in the Soviet Block - you may have to have a flower stuck down the barrel and learn to laugh. It's interesting you would want to preach at someone like me who has carried arms professionally and so readily think anyone pointing to just how silly the situation is will be sending UN "peacekeepers" round in the morning to take anyway your HK or whatever. They took our guns away in NI and got a number of us killed (our crap government rather than the UN - some only survived because they had shotgun licences for private use). In terms of moral reasoning here one ought to consider what end state is most desirable, and I can't think the current situation in the US (or the Mexican drug wars etc) is that. It is equally hopeless to keep stating that we can do any with guns. What might be a new way forward?
On 1 Feb, 21:14, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > nom, > Since your giving credit where credit is due, I may chime in and do > the same. There seems to be a correlation between low crime rates and > loose gun laws. However, its hard to say whether its correlation or > causation. It seems that its probably correlation, or at least we > have the causation backward. Places like London, or New York City, or > Los Angeles that have high crime rates, and consequently high gun > crime rates, and thus tend to get fed up a little faster than those of > us who don't. Thus, they enact strict gun control laws because of the > high crime rates in the area. The NRA would have you believe that the > states with the lower crime rates have lower crime rates due to the > loose gun control laws. They do have some statistics to back this > up. But there are obviously two sides to every argument. > > On Feb 1, 1:24 pm, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hello Don: > > Thank you for your reply, and No, you definitely don't sound like a > > "looney" to me.... just don't make a liar out of me, okay? In the back > > of my mind, I recall, years back of another case in Texas where a > > private citizen gun owner used a big revolver (.44 or biger yet... . > > 50, as I remember) that he had for precision taget shooting at ranges > > to stop a person at a shopping mall parking lot who was randomly just > > killing people. There was an instance where I too was glad that there > > was someone there (private or not) with a gun who could and did stop > > the killer. In my state there are right to carry laws or "pistol > > permits" available. An old friend of mine, since passed, had one... he > > kept a snub-nosed .38... with what-do-you-call-it "hot" (as in extra > > powder) shells. I don't want just anyone packing a gun, either. My > > friend belonged to the NRA. I don't know what to do about the .03% > > that you mention, though. I do think that something should be done > > about them. Now, taking a large overall look at things, I am > > wondering... which would you say has the lower "homicide" statistics > > (from whatever cause gun, knife, etc) a place like Texas that has > > relatively loose gun ownership laws and a very strict (death penalty) > > criminal justice system.... or a place like England-Great Britain that > > has the opposite... very strict gun ownership laws and a comparatively > > lenient (no death penalty) criminal justice system. > > I think we both know the answer to that question, don't we? Not that > > it (pragmatism) accounts for anything on principle. There are still > > other considerations to bear in mind.... I just want to give credit > > where credit is due, and the gun controlers do seem to have this > > point, I think... just keeping it real, as they say. > > nominal9 > > > On Feb 1, 2:34 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > I don't take anything personally unless I'm more or less told it's > > > personal. I've been accused of being chronically laid back(except > > > where crooked politicians are concerned). Yes, Texas is a > > > right-to-own state. We like our guns here. In the interests of > > > clarification, would you consider the gun rights group the NRA a > > > "right-wing fringe element?" I'm not a member, but I sympathize with > > > their cause and I know more then a few liberal Democrats that ARE > > > members. I see them and chat with them at the shooting range > > > regularly. > > > > I offer no excuses for the WACO incident or the Polygamists other then > > > to say that sometimes people with weak minds and limited resources are > > > influenced by smooth talkers offering salvation and 3 squares with a > > > roof over your head. I try not to judge people when I truly don't > > > understand their motivations or circumstances. The Church of Jesus > > > Christ of the Latter Day Saints might take exception to you calling > > > the polygamists Mormons; I have no horse in this race or dog in this > > > fight so I really don't have an opinion. Folks are weird. Including > > > me. > > > > Yes we have several people on Death Row. Killers all. Some of their > > > victims might still be alive had they had a gun in the house and not > > > been afraid to use it. > > > > You have Joe Horn pegged. My opinion on what he actually should have > > > done is thus. He should have recorded them climbing out the window > > > and running off with his neighbors' stuff instead of shooting them. > > > I'm not bloodthirsty and frankly it wouldn't be worth all the trouble > > > he caused for himself by killing them. By the same token, if someone > > > was stealing my car I'd just let them have it and call my insurance > > > company and the cops to report it. It's just not worth the legal > > > hassle of protecting property with lethal force. Not to mention the > > > mental anguish involved in ending life. Somebody loves that guy > > > probably. His mother if no one else. If people break into my home, > > > however, they can expect to be killed. The concealed handgun classes > > > I have attended don't train you to shoot arms or legs they train you > > > to stop the intruder. Basically this means emptying your gun into > > > their torso until they fall down. And stay down. My holster has > > > pockets for extra clips. > > > > It sounds raw, but I take personal protection seriously. Their are > > > too many people out there that have no compunction with hurting > > > others. In fact, some enjoy it. I take comfort in the fact that I > > > have protection for myself and my family. It really is a comfort. > > > > As for the loonies(I hope I've not been put in this category) I agree > > > I don't want just anyone packing a weapon. However, I don't want to > > > lose my right just to protect ourselves from that .03% that either > > > can't handle the responsibility of gun ownership or are just plain > > > mentally unstable. I guess it comes down to individual rights. > > > Constitutional rights in this case. > > > > dj > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Huh....Fellas.... > > > > For the sake, and in the interests, of full disclosure to our > > > > "overseas" Mind's Eye members.... Craig and Don.... you have to admit > > > > that Idaho and Texas are "among" if not "the" most Gun-rights States > > > > in the (U.S.) Union...... and let's not forget that there are quite a > > > > few.... shall we say... right-wing fringe elements in both states? Not > > > > to mention the religious fringe ones? Now, I'm not making this > > > > personal. But Texas... WACO.... The MormonPolygamists... all the > > > > Death penalty cases.... Was Joe Horn the guy who shot those next-door > > > > burglars even after the local police asked him not to... ect? And as > > > > for Idaho.... no offense but isn't that the State residence of choice > > > > for KKK'ers and Neo-Nazis? All I'm saying Craig and Don.... what about > > > > the loonies, as Archytas calls them? > > > > nominal9 > > > > > On Feb 1, 10:00 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I like the laws we have here in Texas. I carry a concealed handgun > > > >> license that is good in several other states as well. If someone > > > >> breaks into your home, you have the right to defend yourself. If you > > > >> are out and about and someone is being robbed or otherwise molested, > > > >> you have the right to use your weapon to stop it. > > > >> While training for the course you get fingerprinted and your gun > > > >> registered so if you do decide to go nuts it's easier to catch you. I > > > >> can't imagine what it would be like to have a law against having a gun > > > >> in the house or having the police come by to take it away. This sort > > > >> of thing actually happened in Louisiana after Katrina. Leaving > > > >> otherwise law abiding citizens at the mercy of the rabble that > > > >> terrorized New Orleans after that disaster. > > > > >> Illegal weapons are easy to get. Outlawing guns only insures that > > > >> only outlaws will have them. > > > > >> Long live Joe Horn. > > > > >> dj > > > > >> On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 8:33 PM, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> > > > >> wrote: > > > > >> > Neil, > > > >> > There is a difference between vigilante justice and self defense. > > > >> > And > > > >> > "assault rifle" is a misnomer concocted by the anti gun activists. I > > > >> > really would like to know what makes an "assault rifle" an "assault > > > >> > rifle". I know there was gun during world war two that the Germans > > > >> > used that they would push around on wheels and it was belt fed, and > > > >> > it > > > >> > did such crazy damage that they called it an assault rifle as a > > > >> > nickname, but a semi-automatic rifle should be called a > > > >> > semi-automatic > > > >> > rifle. Also, the notion that hillbillies are the only ones who > > > >> > believe in the right to bear arms is another anti-gun activist > > > >> > portrayal. In fact the NRA and Gun Owners of America both are filled > > > >> > with respectable people who believe that its their right to own a > > > >> > gun, > > > >> > and they have all their teeth, they don't wear a straw hat, and they > > > >> > wear shoes wherever they go. Oh, and only a few of them have the > > > >> > name > > > >> > of Billy Bob. > > > > >> > I know your just joking around, but your entire post is filled with > > > >> > the misleading stereotypes that are always attributed to gun owners. > > > >> > I was watching television the other day and watching several > > > >> > different > > > >> > television shows, and I could accurately predict every time guns and > > > >> > red necks were going to be linked together before they even did it. > > > >> > It was pretty amazing. > > > > >> > As for your substantive arguments, I tend to find a little more > > > >> > common > > > >> > ground. I don't buy the argument that more guns is always the answer > > > >> > to our problems. On the flip side, just because their is a problem > > > >> > doesn't entail my giving up my right to defend myself and my family. > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
