You lack a notion of irony in solution Craig - don't get me too wrong. In the 1970's my government took weapons off police officers who needed them and some were killed in front of their families. The worst I got was to be put on "sentry duty" with the weapons I was authorised to use kept under lock and key, until, presumably I was killed and the cupboard (literally) opened and my division short of one of its three firearms officers. Some of the claims to need guns in the US resemble the bandit claims made in Africa or the Middle East. Open-mindedness would consider these things - they are painful enough to need some humour. None of this "equates" the US with Africa, though there seems a viable metaphor if we are prepared to be exploratory rather than sophist. Much of the alleged reasoning in this area is plainly daft and should attract ridicule. In the end I think we need a better understanding of how our police and armed services operate democratically and how we can best assure ourselves they do not use the power we give them to form authoritarian states. I almost find myself thinking a "scrote shoot" would not be a bad idea, until one thinks about where it would stop. Many of the arguments in favour of holding guns would not work if we had better policing and government we trusted. Believing we can resist authoritarian government these days by taking to the hills etc. seems wrong - and most democracies now have guns all over the policing sector, apparently to protect us from terrorists and so on. In the UK, we have so far managed to kill an innocent Brazilian, but perhaps our preparedness has stopped a whole load of other stuff. Poking some fun here might well serve us better than all kinds of seriousness.
On 2 Feb, 03:16, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > And one other thing, the post you were responding to was a post in > which I was making the gun control argument. So how I was projecting > poor reasoning, I don't know. I was implying the argument had some > meat to it. > > On Feb 1, 7:06 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > It's funny that you think I want to impose gun laws on you Craig. We > > are lucky here that there are few guns about - though there are now > > far more in police hands. It seems to me you are more like some > > dreadful African state in the US. I wouldn't want to give my gun up. > > Your arguments fly in the face of the facts otherwise and you quickly > > project some pretty poor reasoning onto others in this area and a > > little caricature is quickly too much for you. I feel much the same > > way about the way we have to be restricted in many areas because of > > the actions of loonies and scumbags - and sometimes react as you do on > > this stuff. The gun situation in the US may be rather like the > > revolutions in the Soviet Block - you may have to have a flower stuck > > down the barrel and learn to laugh. It's interesting you would want > > to preach at someone like me who has carried arms professionally and > > so readily think anyone pointing to just how silly the situation is > > will be sending UN "peacekeepers" round in the morning to take anyway > > your HK or whatever. They took our guns away in NI and got a number > > of us killed (our crap government rather than the UN - some only > > survived because they had shotgun licences for private use). In terms > > of moral reasoning here one ought to consider what end state is most > > desirable, and I can't think the current situation in the US (or the > > Mexican drug wars etc) is that. It is equally hopeless to keep > > stating that we can do any with guns. What might be a new way > > forward? > > > On 1 Feb, 21:14, Kierkecraig <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > nom, > > > Since your giving credit where credit is due, I may chime in and do > > > the same. There seems to be a correlation between low crime rates and > > > loose gun laws. However, its hard to say whether its correlation or > > > causation. It seems that its probably correlation, or at least we > > > have the causation backward. Places like London, or New York City, or > > > Los Angeles that have high crime rates, and consequently high gun > > > crime rates, and thus tend to get fed up a little faster than those of > > > us who don't. Thus, they enact strict gun control laws because of the > > > high crime rates in the area. The NRA would have you believe that the > > > states with the lower crime rates have lower crime rates due to the > > > loose gun control laws. They do have some statistics to back this > > > up. But there are obviously two sides to every argument. > > > > On Feb 1, 1:24 pm, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hello Don: > > > > Thank you for your reply, and No, you definitely don't sound like a > > > > "looney" to me.... just don't make a liar out of me, okay? In the back > > > > of my mind, I recall, years back of another case in Texas where a > > > > private citizen gun owner used a big revolver (.44 or biger yet... . > > > > 50, as I remember) that he had for precision taget shooting at ranges > > > > to stop a person at a shopping mall parking lot who was randomly just > > > > killing people. There was an instance where I too was glad that there > > > > was someone there (private or not) with a gun who could and did stop > > > > the killer. In my state there are right to carry laws or "pistol > > > > permits" available. An old friend of mine, since passed, had one... he > > > > kept a snub-nosed .38... with what-do-you-call-it "hot" (as in extra > > > > powder) shells. I don't want just anyone packing a gun, either. My > > > > friend belonged to the NRA. I don't know what to do about the .03% > > > > that you mention, though. I do think that something should be done > > > > about them. Now, taking a large overall look at things, I am > > > > wondering... which would you say has the lower "homicide" statistics > > > > (from whatever cause gun, knife, etc) a place like Texas that has > > > > relatively loose gun ownership laws and a very strict (death penalty) > > > > criminal justice system.... or a place like England-Great Britain that > > > > has the opposite... very strict gun ownership laws and a comparatively > > > > lenient (no death penalty) criminal justice system. > > > > I think we both know the answer to that question, don't we? Not that > > > > it (pragmatism) accounts for anything on principle. There are still > > > > other considerations to bear in mind.... I just want to give credit > > > > where credit is due, and the gun controlers do seem to have this > > > > point, I think... just keeping it real, as they say. > > > > nominal9 > > > > > On Feb 1, 2:34 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > I don't take anything personally unless I'm more or less told it's > > > > > personal. I've been accused of being chronically laid back(except > > > > > where crooked politicians are concerned). Yes, Texas is a > > > > > right-to-own state. We like our guns here. In the interests of > > > > > clarification, would you consider the gun rights group the NRA a > > > > > "right-wing fringe element?" I'm not a member, but I sympathize with > > > > > their cause and I know more then a few liberal Democrats that ARE > > > > > members. I see them and chat with them at the shooting range > > > > > regularly. > > > > > > I offer no excuses for the WACO incident or the Polygamists other then > > > > > to say that sometimes people with weak minds and limited resources are > > > > > influenced by smooth talkers offering salvation and 3 squares with a > > > > > roof over your head. I try not to judge people when I truly don't > > > > > understand their motivations or circumstances. The Church of Jesus > > > > > Christ of the Latter Day Saints might take exception to you calling > > > > > the polygamists Mormons; I have no horse in this race or dog in this > > > > > fight so I really don't have an opinion. Folks are weird. Including > > > > > me. > > > > > > Yes we have several people on Death Row. Killers all. Some of their > > > > > victims might still be alive had they had a gun in the house and not > > > > > been afraid to use it. > > > > > > You have Joe Horn pegged. My opinion on what he actually should have > > > > > done is thus. He should have recorded them climbing out the window > > > > > and running off with his neighbors' stuff instead of shooting them. > > > > > I'm not bloodthirsty and frankly it wouldn't be worth all the trouble > > > > > he caused for himself by killing them. By the same token, if someone > > > > > was stealing my car I'd just let them have it and call my insurance > > > > > company and the cops to report it. It's just not worth the legal > > > > > hassle of protecting property with lethal force. Not to mention the > > > > > mental anguish involved in ending life. Somebody loves that guy > > > > > probably. His mother if no one else. If people break into my home, > > > > > however, they can expect to be killed. The concealed handgun classes > > > > > I have attended don't train you to shoot arms or legs they train you > > > > > to stop the intruder. Basically this means emptying your gun into > > > > > their torso until they fall down. And stay down. My holster has > > > > > pockets for extra clips. > > > > > > It sounds raw, but I take personal protection seriously. Their are > > > > > too many people out there that have no compunction with hurting > > > > > others. In fact, some enjoy it. I take comfort in the fact that I > > > > > have protection for myself and my family. It really is a comfort. > > > > > > As for the loonies(I hope I've not been put in this category) I agree > > > > > I don't want just anyone packing a weapon. However, I don't want to > > > > > lose my right just to protect ourselves from that .03% that either > > > > > can't handle the responsibility of gun ownership or are just plain > > > > > mentally unstable. I guess it comes down to individual rights. > > > > > Constitutional rights in this case. > > > > > > dj > > > > > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 10:46 AM, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Huh....Fellas.... > > > > > > For the sake, and in the interests, of full disclosure to our > > > > > > "overseas" Mind's Eye members.... Craig and Don.... you have to > > > > > > admit > > > > > > that Idaho and Texas are "among" if not "the" most Gun-rights States > > > > > > in the (U.S.) Union...... and let's not forget that there are quite > > > > > > a > > > > > > few.... shall we say... right-wing fringe elements in both states? > > > > > > Not > > > > > > to mention the religious fringe ones? Now, I'm not making this > > > > > > personal. But Texas... WACO.... The MormonPolygamists... all the > > > > > > Death penalty cases.... Was Joe Horn the guy who shot those > > > > > > next-door > > > > > > burglars even after the local police asked him not to... ect? And as > > > > > > for Idaho.... no offense but isn't that the State residence of > > > > > > choice > > > > > > for KKK'ers and Neo-Nazis? All I'm saying Craig and Don.... what > > > > > > about > > > > > > the loonies, as Archytas calls them? > > > > > > nominal9 > > > > > > > On Feb 1, 10:00 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> I like the laws we have here in Texas. I carry a concealed handgun > > > > > >> license that is good in several other states as well. If someone > > > > > >> breaks into your home, you have the right to defend yourself. If > > > > > >> you > > > > > >> are out and about and someone is being robbed or otherwise > > > > > >> molested, > > > > > >> you have the right to use your weapon to stop it. > > > > > >> While training for the course you get fingerprinted and your gun > > > > > >> registered so if you do decide to go nuts it's easier to catch > > > > > >> you. I > > > > > >> can't imagine what it would > > ... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
