"... On Apr 15, 4:20 am, Molly Brogan <[email protected]>
wrote: ..."

> I liked that movie also.  We all have a drive to explain life, and do
> so endlessly, from our own viewpoints.  I posted the clip as an
> example of pre rational mind sets, as an off set to gruff's rational
> post.

I'm happy you consider me to be rational ... at least sometimes.  I
might have grasped that meaning had I known what the clip was from ...
but my viewing was completely without context.  My favorite clip
showing that same pre-rational mind set comes at the beginning of
2001: A Space Odessy when the chimp picks up the femur and tilts its
head in puzzlement before it begins to club the pile of bones to
smithereens.

> There are even, I
> think, transrational mindsets that allow for this objectification.

What is transrational?  Why lies beyond rationality?  Are you
comparing this to a religious state of mind?  An enlightened state?
Or do you see something else?

> My faith, your faith, god is...all express at least a degree of
> separation.  And separation without the one allows the object.  I
> bring this up because I don't believe that I truly experienced the
> flow of my internal morality until I was able to live from that
> position of the one and the many (the ultimate paradox) - God as the
> expression of the individual man who collectively express the god
> within (whether they are aware of it or not, each perfectly ordered
> unto themselves)  Until we can realize this paradox, our morality is
> an agreed upon notion of the good, and we each live up to it or not,
> like the laws that govern our cultures.

I disagree, at least from a personal perspective.  It is not until
your final statement that I think you have stated what to me is the
only basis for a real moral foundation: the law.  From my own personal
perspective, I left belief in God at a fairly young age,
notwithstanding the pitiful attempts I made to return to the fold a
few time when I got too depressed.  But they never worked.  They
couldn't.  I was already transbelief and wandered through this strange
world bereft of morals.  The only mandate that kept me in line to any
degree was fear of the punishment that would attend were I caught.

It was not until I got interested in law (not lawyers -- though the
ability to manipulate that comes with a knowledge of their ways was
what initially drew me in) that I began to develop a set of moral
codes to which I still adhere.  When I began reading opinions of
judges and saw the standards of behavior to which we are held as
members of this society, and understood that the only way to have a
civil and civilized society is via law, was when a moral passion first
arose in me.  Yet even those standards are vague.  Civil law holds us
to the behavior of a reasonable and prudent person.  Criminal law is
based in common law and the protection of the individual and property
from harm.

There was shock as well.  When a respected jurist and man of letters,
Oliver Wendall Holmes, wrote in an opinion upholding the state's right
to forcibly sterilize a woman that, "... three generations of idiots
are enough." it was like a slap in the face and eventually brought me
to an awareness that nothing is perfect and does not need to be.

But the grist is that we don't need gods nor religion to rise up and
behave in a moral and rational manner.  We have all we need within
ourselves to do that.  We just have to believe.
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