“There is so much to be done !” – vam To do or not to do….’tis of no difference. Tis the act of just being.
And, dear lee, as to the apparent tautology of living and life itself, to see such a self-perpetuating thing as being trivial based upon some mental proposition, most likely but a meme, seems to be out of the point. “It seems that both the buddah and Darwin agree on the viciousness of life. Bearing in mind then that in general for life to sustain itself other forms of life must die, it is clear that life in and of itself is not sacred at all.” – lee And here, I must protest in that while Gautama did acknowledge that humans perceive life as suffering, he also, in those very same 4 noble truths, said there was a way out of such suffering and even showed the way! Going further, even logically, IF any one aspect of life is divine, since as you say, life begets life, then all of life is sacred, rather than not. I’ll wait to respond to some of the rest of your perhaps rhetorical questions. On Jun 22, 5:37 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > This then Vam is is where we differ. > > I'm not as sure as I used to be on the sanctity of life. > > Perhaps you can re-persuade me? Why do you feel this way? What is it > about life that we should regard it so? > > Is it appropraite for all forms of life or just human? > > Life in general is far from meaningless, but the only meaning that I > can really see is, well is just to be, to live to create life, all in > all quite a circular thing. Realise though when I say this, I mean > life in general, not specificly the life of any species. > > It seems that both the buddah and Darwin agree on the viciousness of > life. Bearing in mind then that in general for life to sustain itself > other forms of life must die, it is clear that life in and of itself > is not sacred at all. > > Is it then a holy purpose that makes it so? What if one is atheist? > > The hardest thing about death for us humans are those we leave behind, > but even then if I cry over the death of my father or God forbid, my > son, for whom do I shed a tear? Is it the dead or is it my own > feelings? > > Something I share with buddist's is the need to end the life-death- > rebirth cycle, perhaps it is this that shapes my stance? Heh a stance > that I know drives our Ian mad. > > This though, and I mean this differance of opinion between myself and > Ian(who will undoubtedly say that my position places life in second > place), both stem from faith based belifes huh. > > On 22 June, 12:52, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " From your end words can I assume Vam, that you belife in the > > sancticy of life ?" > > > Without doubt, Lee ! > > > I however will never condemn the person who actually commits suicide, > > under such extreme duress as to be unbearable for one reason or other. > > I would empathise. > > > But, to say that life is meaningless, therefore I will ( and have the > > right to ) end my life ... this I would say is flippant, very > > callous. > > > Yes, I agree with you about your ownership of Mind, or rather what is > > in the mind - knowledge, attitude, values, etc. > > > In India, there are spiritual achievers who actually set precise date > > and time to enter into death. Some of them are amazing people that > > declare that they have fulfilled the very purpose of life, and cannot > > wait to witness death and beyond ! But, they do not leave behind > > grief, misery and mourning for others. > > > These are the perhaps the only " clear minds " I see who merit > > exemption. For the rest of us, we should be using our clear minds to > > better ( our knowledge of ) ourselves, the lot of others about us, and > > the environment. There is so much to be done ! > > > On Jun 22, 3:38 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > Hey Vam, > > > > Thanks for ths post, the chalenge of re-thinking belifes is something > > > that I personaly pursual vigerously. > > > > You are correct I am not responsible for the creation of me, or more > > > properly for the creation of this body. I do own myself however by > > > dint of having a mind. Nobody but me can lay claim to my mind, both > > > of my perants and indeed all those I have come into contact with that, > > > have shapped my personality stil cannot claim to own me. > > > > These people that have helped in whatever small way to shape my mind > > > cannot claim ownership of it either. > > > Nor can they claim such over my body, for my body houses my mind. > > > > If I grew up a slave and a child of slaves in a real sense I would > > > have a master who could claim ownership of my body, yet even in such a > > > case my mind is still my own. My master could not for example order > > > me to love him, nor order me to never attempt escape. Of course he > > > could order such, but it is not his will that wins in such a case but > > > my own. This shows that although a claim of ownership can be made, it > > > is an errorounes claim. > > > > You are correct I do scoff at the idea of land ownership. When all > > > that lay claim to land are dead and gone does the land revert to self > > > ownership, or can we say that the land itself was never really owned > > > in the first place, just borrowed? > > > > From your end words can I assume Vam, that you belife in the sancticy > > > of life? > > > > On 22 June, 10:58, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " Ownership ... " > > > > > A request to think again, Lee ! What have YOU done or given to create > > > > this life you call your own ? In fact, this life has created YOU. > > > > This life was seeded by your father, nurtured by your mother. What did > > > > you do in that process ? It is this life, on the other hand, that > > > > given you the faculties for you use, to learn and grow, the limbs, for > > > > you to use and earn your livelihood and gather all manner of > > > > experiences. > > > > > There are a number of other people, I'm sure, who would have > > > > contributed to nurture and safeguard, and grow this life you call your > > > > own ( to the extent of retaining the right to end it at own exclusive > > > > will ). Even the Government, and hence the UK taxpayers, would have > > > > footed quite a few of the subsidies on your education and health ! > > > > > I recall you scoffing at this idea of owning land. The situation with > > > > your life is similar. You are its trustee and, as that, you have the > > > > right to ( defend and nurture ) your life. Not to end it. Perhaps. > > > > > On Jun 22, 2:14 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Yes a brave subject Rigsby. > > > > > > So to continue the braveness I shall declare my position. > > > > > > The ownership over your own life is the most fundimental 'right' that > > > > > we humans have, and note I enclose the word right because I realise > > > > > that there are no intrinsic rights, not even this one. > > > > > > Now having said that however the reason why I belive that the killing > > > > > of one human by another is moraly reprehensible is because such an act > > > > > takes away this right of ownership. > > > > > > So this in a nutshell is what I belive, which means that I view > > > > > suicide as an extention of this right. If it is your wish to end your > > > > > life, then it is your right to do so and I belive nobody should > > > > > gainsay this. > > > > > > On a personal note I also think that those who go through with the > > > > > act, easpecily if they leave others behind, are brave in the > > > > > extreame. To contemplate all the suffering that the death by you own > > > > > hands would bring to those around you, and then to do it anyway. Of > > > > > course this is only relevant for those who apprach the deed with a > > > > > clear mind. > > > > > > On 21 June, 02:08, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > It is not just the habit of poets rigsy. Suicide is the eleventh > > > > > > most > > > > > > common > > > > > > cause of death in the United States. A person dies by suicide about > > > > > > every 16 minutes in the United States. An attempt is estimated to > > > > > > be > > > > > > made once every minute. Though people who have the highest risk of > > > > > > suicide are white men, women and teens report more suicide attempts. > > > > > > This comparison speaks volumes concerning the seriousness of > > > > > > suicide. > > > > > > Attempting suicide is just as much a problem as successful attempts. > > > > > > > I've had many thoughts on suicide. Here is some rehashing. I truly > > > > > > hope it is not within your immediate set of contemplations but > > > > > > simply > > > > > > a melancholy drift, a dissipating cloud. > > > > > > > Suicide is always the ultimate exit strategy unless someone is > > > > > > confined in a prison or mental institution and strict measures are > > > > > > taken to disallow the act. Thoughts of suicide at any age for any > > > > > > reason can return at any time when the ugly side of life rears it's > > > > > > head. If you thought about it when you were 8 you will think about > > > > > > it > > > > > > when you are 38, 58 or 88. > > > > > > > To terminate one's existence is entirely based on the individual's > > > > > > perception of > > > > > > life at the time of suicidal contemplation. To be more precise, > > > > > > when > > > > > > all value in life has reached the point of nil, the life itself > > > > > > becomes meaningless. When no amount of wealth or enlightenment > > > > > > offers > > > > > > any degree of worth to the individual there is little desire to > > > > > > exist > > > > > > as the question arises, "what is there to live for?". Surely there > > > > > > are those who would offer alternative avenues to the suicidal > > > > > > individual but the alternatives may only hold value to those > > > > > > individuals offering the alternatives. Each individual lives within > > > > > > the self consciousness of the individual's self and so no one can > > > > > > transfer life values to that person. This is the dilemma that we > > > > > > face > > > > > > when trying to understand why someone would want to commit suicide > > > > > > as > > > > > > we cannot share the thought patterns of the individual prior to the > > > > > > suicide and can no longer query the individual in the post suicidal > > > > > > state. This is of course aside from heroic or religious based > > > > > > suicides > > > > > > and detailed explanations left by the individual prior to suicide. > > > > > > Though we all have the freedom (perhaps not the nerve) to commit > > > > > > suicide, most choose life instead and find value in it's most simple > > > > > > form. > > > > > > > Truly the experience of just being alive is enough for some to > > > > > > view it as being the main value in living. Some view suffering as > > > > > > part > > > > > > of the living experience and therefore find no cause to terminate > > > > > > life. Some may insist that suicide is wrong and unjust according to > > > > > > various standards, however, I find that aspect to be centered upon > > > > > > social/religious obligations. Considering- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more » --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/Minds-Eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
