On 14 Sep, 13:05, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> > > Yes I agree, energy exists and potential energy exists. In our
> > > universe all of that is true, but we are speaking of the 'time' before
> > > the universe started, so there was no potential, no energy, no matter,
> > > only spirt in the 'form' of God.
>
> > But how, in your view, can spirit exist without a time for it in which
> > to exist?
>
> Because spirt is not matter while energy is. The creation of matter
> came from spirit, God said 'let there be light, and lo there was'. So
> I guess what I'm saying is 'before the begining there was formless
> God, and God desired form'
>
While all matter is energy, not all energy is matter. Which is
why I speak of 'energy' and not matter. I doubt God desired form,
rather, it was always potential, so, at some point, it had to be.
> >The conundrum is gotten around by understanding that 'that
> > which exists' is energy and, as energy is neither created nor
> > destroyed, must, therefore, exist eternally in some state or any of a
> > number of transference/transformation states.
> > E.g., Energy, 'prior'
> > to "Creation" was still extant, but in an eternal state of potential.
> > Thus, it didn't 'seem' to be or 'appear' to be, but it most certainly
> > 'was' or there could be nothing afterwards. At that point (note, I
> > don't say 'at that time'), the various dimensions weren't folded about
> > one another the way they are now. But they all existed or, at least,
> > existed potentially since they can be currently conceived.
>
> True, in a universe made of matter. You hit problems though when you
> consider that the very few micro seconds after the big bang our
> physics was not as it is now. Which is saying that our universal
> constants were not always constant. So that the maxim 'energy cannot
> be created nor destroyed' has not always been true.
I don't think that's ever been demonstrated. Energy has always
existed in some form or another. some forms require no 'material',
per se, thus the rest mass of a photon being nil.
>
> > > This is fine for the likes of you and I Pat, what though of the other
> > > members here that do not belive in such a being? Perhaps then your
> > > first assumption should have been, God is?
>
> > Nah, the first axiom must be that energy exists. And then, that all
> > things are of some form of energy.
>
> Yet that fails to answer my initial query. Before the big bang, what
> substance was there for energy to exist in?
Energy existed as its full x-Dimensional form, just without all the
conformations that exist NOW that allow it to interact with itself in
the way that it does now.
> You give an example of the potential energy in an object lifted from
> the floor. No object, no floor, no gravity, no time must equal no
> potetntial energy?
>
Potential energy is not tangible, like the floor, it doesn't require a
'form' for it to exist. Time existed as 'just another dimension', but
it's effects of 'passing' were not initiated until the conformation
that led to the Big Bang.
> > > Ahh then of course some of us here would have called you on that
> > > assumption.
>
> > > Okay then I guess I can work on the principle that when you say
> > > potential, you mean the 'desire' of God.
>
> > Potential energy achieving its potential has nothing to do with
> > desire out of necessity, although it could, later, be involved
> > (usually by intelligent beings such as ourselves). The only required
> > awareness is the awareness of the One, which WOULD have begun at my
> > point P7. All of ours developed much later.
>
> Yes indeed it is this awearness (of the one) that I speak. As I say
> it readily answers my concerns about time and energy, but what of our
> atheist freinds out there? How can energy (a form of matter) exist
> before matter does, or potential (a function of time) exist before
> time does?
All matter is a form of energy, but not all energy is a form of
matter. That must be understood, first. Consciousness, itself should
serve as a decent example. Although the materialists will demand that
it requires some form of physical presence, these deductions come from
people who have not encountered consciousnesses that have NOT had
physical presence. I have, so my experiences are wider (not more
valid!!) and can encompass more.
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