As far as I remember, the you’re/your mistake is a typical Craig confusion, not Ian’s. That’s why he is pissed whereas Craig is the one who has always been too old. And Vam joins the bandwagon. But then who got these Minds Ayers rolling in the first place?
On 29 Okt., 14:40, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Yes Slip - the logic is 'strange' - a key element in a lot of > scientific thinking. Ian's wit is sharp here and there is much to > agree with. Does, for instance, this 'making everyone winners > sportsday' translate to the current fetish for accrediting everything > (from NVQs in stair sweeping) and the passing everyone habits in > schools and universities and the dilution of what school certificates > and degrees mean? Pat is talking a sophisticated educational language > that one can find in a recent Cambridge-led review - ideas that very > much seem to work in Greater Scandinavia and is linked as you point at > to notions education needs to be linked to a fairer society. The > pedantry over 'your' and 'you're' may also be a key problem - is this > attention to detail (sometimes good) or the kind of chronic limiting > of creativity 'red pen' often brings? Here, one would hope it's just > an 'in joke' that can damage neither Ian nor I, but it's also > representative of a miserable educational culture that is marking > grammatic literacy ahead of ideas. I've had really bright dyselxic > students reduced to tears and confidence collapse by much worse and > the arguments about this establishment bias go back to Labov how > sought to show one could find more intelligence in street-talk on real > problems than amongst Ivy League training mediocrity. Ian's tale was > short and cutting (to a chase). I can't remember how many people have > assumed I must be an idiot, sexist, racist and so on because I played > so much sport and was so competitive. I'd say the experience helped > make me the opposite. Key in Wittgenstein's form of deconstruction is > an ability to see many apparently opposing arguments are not what they > seem, that they can be based in similarities (the key notion in the > Ludwig and Snell programmes in the hsitory of science). Chris is > rig ht too, that the 'chavs' can easily take advantge inn our society - > we could go a lot further and spot this in forms of 'intellectual > chavism' and varieties of it inthe 'hoolier than thou' claiming moral > certainty, or even those apparently denying such certainty whilst > living very comfortably as commentators of the left. > > Pat suggests a solution of new competitions with worthy ends. Quite > right - almost nothing left to say and much to do. > > Before turning a few words in here I was 'supervising' my grandson and > some of his mates - it's half-term (pure joy!) - two black lads and > 'half-cast' (where do we get these terms?) and a lot of east-European > genes, now off in search of Jamil after some Grand Theft Auto. Not a > trace of racism amongst them and families who make a few extra chips > and such in hospitality - yet around us the old problems are rearing > their ugly heads again - they have never gone away. > > On the IQ stuff there is key scientific evidence - that we differ very > little genetically - that should be making us see the problem clearly > as indicating unfairness and a proneness to see certainties (such as > races lacking intelligence) where there is nothing other than cultural > elitism and self-deception, a repeated failure to see how different > and radical a fair society would be. Our kids sort of manage it - > what are we doing that destroys this? Sport is a good exemplar of how > much nonsense is talked on superiority, when looked at historically. > Classics are the success of ethnic minorities once colour-bars are > destroyed and 'showtime' allowed. How many of our 'so valuable we'll > die without paying them small fortunes bwankers' would survive if we > introduced open examinatons insttead of the current old boy network? > Sadly, only the colour and class origins of the King Mice would change > as it has in the NFL and Premier League, if we don't change the > broader structures. > > The arguments are strange and complicated - simplexity might emerge if > we worked harder. What we try todo needs aan understanding of > tolerance and a dropping of much almost iconographic levels of > remembered pain, whilst establishing a true history from which we can > work. Much of this history will be a history of failures and > unintended consequences. The question is partly about recognising > links between personal-individual virtue and social success. We have > been making do with greed and myth, including many about clarity and > certainty, many born in cultures equally unsuited to the current > crisis. I was going to send Ian some nappies as a gesture of help > with his problem, but obviously I should retain these for personal use > following Dr. Vam's diagnosis. > > It's sad to see cricket venues I once hoped to be god ennough to grace > in Pakistan being blown to bits. Sadder still is the feeble Olympian > movement that can organise obsessive drug-cheats into a festival (has > there been a decent incident at such since the Black Power glove?) > from which we never learn we could organise projects that would bring > peace, security and something to want to do? > > On 29 Oct, 12:07, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 28 Oct, 18:05, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Good thoughts all, Pat, but as noted, idealistic and utopian. Here's where > > > it breaks down: > > > > 1. The intelligent and socially rsponsibble agree that disarmament and > > > non-competitive cooperation is the ideal, and take steps to make this a > > > reality. > > > > 2. The brutes and anti-socials (chavs, if you will), recognize this > > > accurately as a weakness, and come take all the posessioons, liberties, > > > and > > > virginities of the rest of the group. > > > > Darwin accurately noted the brutality of nature,and it's onnly idealism > > > and > > > rank utopianism that allows us to believe that it could be anything else. > > > Those who are raised upwithout thhe ability to recognize this, and compete > > > accordingly, fail in the inevitable competitions which WILL occur. I'll > > > buy > > > your dream when one day goes by on this planet that a woman is not raped. > > > I completely agree that the world will always afford us > > competitions but that they can be won by us all if we combine our > > efforts. I have no problem with ideals or idealism, outside the fact > > that they aren't striven towards. Possessions are a misnomer, liberty > > fades in the face of a space-time continuum and viginity MUST fail if > > we are all to survive to the next generation. The brutes, as you call > > them, hould thhen, as an act of compassion by the rest of us, be > > removed. No doubt that's why we have no more Neanderthals--perhaps > > the Cro-Magnon were more evolved spiritually and found that they HAD > > to remove the brutes in order to survive t OUU stagee. > > If we want competitions in schools, rather than meaningless egg-n- > > spoon races, why not have a competition to reforest an area and reward > > the individual/class/school the excels in planting the most trees? At > > least there's a tangible and beneficial result from the competition, > > rather than a meaningless 'sport'. > > I see no benefits to having what amounts to 'circuses' when there > > are people (homeless and starving) who require bread. At least Rome > > gave 'bread and circuses'; we only give circuses. How sad is THAT? > > > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2009 at 1:57 PM, Pat <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > On 28 Oct, 14:01, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > 2009/10/28 Pat <[email protected]> > > > > > > > Of course we have schools all wrong. We encourage children to > > > > > > compete against one another--to score better on tests than their > > > > > > peers, to excel at sports over their their peers and teach them that > > > > > > the only way THEY will do well is if they can continue to beat > > > > > > everyone else 'out there' in the real world. > > > > > > Totally wrong, Pat. This is exactly what we don't do any more in > > > > > schools. > > > > My > > > > > nephew's recent sports day was pathetic. No prizes for the winners > > > > (because > > > > > "everyone was a winner")! What a fucking celebration of mediocrity. > > > > > Well, you can prove that by, first, adopting my system for a > > > > generation (maybe 2) and seeing if it works better or not. Anything > > > > else is just hot air. 'Sport' doesn't matter as much as getting along > > > > with one another. And, if you think it does, then, I'm afraid, we'll > > > > have to agree to disagree. Nothing lost in that. But nothing > > > > gained. > > > > > > Unsurprisingly, the most popular schools -- and the ones with the > > > > > highest > > > > > level of achievement -- are the ones that are independent, fee paying, > > > > and > > > > > encourage competition in all areas. > > > > > But how many bright, poor, homeless people go there? Straw man, > > > > I'm afraid. All of us are equally individual. I don't ascribe to > > > > 'animal farm' ideals. Nor should you. Nor would I have thought you > > > > would. > > > > > > We don't live in the kind of utopia you're philosophy requires, sadly; > > > > > Darwinism still reigns. > > > > > Darwin, I would think, was intelligent enough to realise the value > > > > of cooperation and coordination. If your liver started competing with > > > > your pancreas, how long do you think you'd last? Our own bodies give > > > > us the example of the obvious success of organisation, coordination > > > > and cooperation and Darwin would agree with that. What reigns isn't > > > > Darwinism, what reigns is caveman mentality--the bigger club/weapon > > > > the better 'fit'. Bollocks. That reduces us to the least common > > > > denominator rather than our highest ideals. We MUST get out of that > > > > caveman thinking or we WILL be reduced back to that level. > > > > > > Ian- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected] To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected] For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
