Wafa Sultan covers this topic EXTREMELY well in her debate with a Conservative Muslim Cleric.
http://www.spike.com/video/wafa-sultan-clashes/2703896 <http://www.spike.com/video/wafa-sultan-clashes/2703896>She destroys the concept of "Islam as a religion which can peacefully cooperate with others", using specifics. She was raised as a devout Muslim in an Islamic society, so speaks from the horse's mouth. It's only those in the west, who apply WESTERN concepts of cooperativism to religions, who think otherwise. On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 12:15 PM, fran the man <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On 3 Dez., 00:06, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > Argh, Francis, with your Irish-catholic background you have morphed > > into such a Gutmensch that it is almost unbearable. > > > Sticks and stones may break my bones ... > > More seriously, though, Gabby, I started this post because I really am > NOT clear about how I stand on this issue. The town in which I live > has a sizable Muslim (mostly Turkish) minority, indeed, last year, for > the first time over 50% of the children born here in Remscheid had > what is officially called "a migrant background" (not that they were > all Muslims, since "ethnic" Germans with a Russian backround, for > example, are also included in this category). I have daily contact > with Muslim women swathed in cloth and young Turkish males, whose > testosterone-fuelled, insecure, aggressive, sensitive, ill-educated, > chauvenistic arrogance can be very hard to take. My daughter > frequently has to deal with their denigrating machismo misogeny and > consequently has more to put up with than me. I have been confronted > with comments that our society is decadent and immoral and, given > their higher birth-rates, they are going to be in the majority here > some day and then we'd better all watch out. I personally know of a > Turkish family, where both parents are carriers of a rare genetic > condition (probably as a result of a very small gene-pool in an remote > area in eastern Anatolia) whose second child was born horrifically > deformed five years ago and still lives (if you can call it living; > blind, deaf, without any contact with the outside world, severely > mentally handicapped [as far as CAT brain-scans can tell], who despite > heavy medication and sedation still suffers from frequent daily > epileptic seizures in a long-term intensive-care institution. She is > able to cry when she is in discomfort - and she cries a lot). Her > parents visit her for about an hour around once a month. But then, > she's only a girl. Since her birth, knowing the genetic situation, the > mother has been pregnant twice - one miscarriage, one healthy child - > and is now pregnant again. She refuses ante-natal tests because Allah > is merciful. I could relate many more anecdotes. > > Like Chris, I am sceptical about whether many followers of Islam > really respect the culture into which they have migrated and whether > they are really interested in integration. Given the example of many > majority Muslim cultures throughout the world, I wonder whether Islam > as it is generally interpreted today is capable of living those > teachings of the Qur'an which advocate tolerance and respect. This is > a general problem with religions which base themselves on "Holy > Scriptures"; you can find a Bible chapter and verse or a Qur'an sura > and ayat to support any position. As I see it, Islam froze itself into > anti-intellectualism, anti-rationalism around seven hundred years ago > with the general acceptance of the primacy of al-Ghazali's viewpoint > over that taken by Averroes. Christianity (in many respects not much > better), in a tortured, conflct-ridden history, at least never > completely rejected reason, leading, ultimately to the Enlightenment > and Scientific Revolution. > > And yet ... > > The Swiss minaret prohibition strikes me as ... well ... petty. It > also seems to me to be an expression of a tendency to abandon the > open, rational, humane positions which form (thankfully) part of the > fundament of western society. It's replying to intolerance and narrow- > mindedness with more intolerance and more narrow-mindedness. In this > sense, it seems to somehow express an insecurity about our own values, > an uncertainty about their strengths. > > That said, I don't know any easy answers to the clash between many > recensions of Islam and western culture. Do we really want tests for > "good citizenship"? Do we need them? How is an open society to deal > with its enemies? > > Francis > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
