On 21 Jan, 15:02, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > No, Pat, nothing to do with lying or not. It is about a position that > alienates simple and good people, if different, who happen to continue > to believe in their self alone, and not even by what they knew or > believed in the previous moment. > > The fact is : any position that has specificity, defined particularly, > however good or great, is limiting ... there is it, and there are > others. The limitation can only be overcome by more clarity, of the > more fundamental issue ... inclusivity, in practice, in reality. >
And The One that is the basis of my physics is all-inclusive, as there are no others. I don't TRY to alienate, but if another feels alienated, that is THEIR inference rather than my implication. > On Jan 21, 6:52 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 21 Jan, 13:47, Vamadevananda <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > " The Kafir refuses to accept that the will of Allah rules. Iman is > > > a realisation that the will of Allah is what governs all." > > > > I can't write this without calling for Fran's attention. The Question > > > to you, Pat : But what is the will of Allah ? Is it history, as we > > > know ? ... as we understand on our own ? ... as we learn in scientific > > > theories and models ? ... as we feel ? ... as in folk lore ? ... as in > > > myths ? ... as in ideas advanced by other individuals, good, bad, > > > ugly, saintly, religious, knowledgeable , prophet like ? ... > > > > WHAT is the will of Allah ? WHO knows ? WHY should I believe it, > > > since my own ( good ) sense says otherwise ? All this, especially > > > since you agree that NOT ONE of us here have an access to future ! > > > Even Jesus is reported to have observed : Not I. Only my Father knows. > > > Thus Jesus' comment in Gethsemene: Not my will, but Thine be done. > > God's will is "that which has occurred, that which is occurring and > > that which will occur". Nothing more, nothing less. And that is the > > truth of it. As to who knows, well, yes, Only the One knows ALL of > > it, as that's the definition of omniscience. Omnipotence is the > > ability to carry out that will and omnipresence is what allows Him to > > do it. What we know are small parts of it. Your own good sense, > > surely doesn't tell you I'm lying in what I've just said, does it? > > > > On Jan 21, 5:40 pm, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 20 Jan, 19:19, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > 2010/1/20 Pat <[email protected]> > > > > > > > Not in the Qur'an it's not. > > > > > > Pat, > > > > > > In the Qu'ran, Eeman and Kufr are a matter of free will for humanity. > > > > > Rather they are a matter of realisation. The Kafir refuses to accept > > > > that the will of Allah rules. Iman is a realisation that the will of > > > > Allah is what governs all. Realisations 'occur' to people, you don't > > > > choose them. Have you never had a thought 'occur' to you? If you > > > > have, what choice did you have IN that occurrance? Try looking into > > > > Qadar/Qadr, i.e., kismet. In the Qur'an, it is clearly stated that > > > > Allah is the Creator of all things. Do you not think that includes > > > > your 'supposed' will? > > > > > >On > > > > > that principle, I believe almost all denominations of Muslims *do* > > > > > agree > > > > > (and I can think of nothing more important, personally). I can only > > > > > assume > > > > > you're aligning yourself with extremist sects like Al-Jabariyah, who > > > > > deny > > > > > there is any free agency for mankind at all. That's probably does > > > > > suit your > > > > > agenda, so I can see why you're drawn to it. It's hardly objective, > > > > > though; > > > > > more like pick 'n mix theology or, from some perspectives, > > > > > free-wheeling > > > > > apostasy. > > > > > {snicker} The concept of agency is not extremist, certainly not in > > > > light of the evidence of the space-time continuum, which must contain > > > > ALL events. > > > > > > > And, besides, the 'appearance' of free > > > > > > will DOES exist. > > > > > > Is anyone else troubled by the idea of a prankster God? :) > > > > > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qmglGWMsdk > > > > > > Ian- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
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