Meh! As I say in my first post what interest this one will have for the athiest I really don't know. Take it as read my freind that I belive that God exists and so any post relating to 'my invisible friend' none existance is counter productive to this particular debate.
It may happen that in the fullness of time I may well 'do an Ian'. It may not, who can see into the future? You are right though all of human exeriance and all ideas are subjective, however with religoin there really is nothing else that is comparible, so it is quite literaly a branch of thought out there on it's own. On 23 Feb, 17:25, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > Lee; > How can a message transcend that of culture when the fact is that the > entire concept of deity existence is a product of culture and simply > exists within the minds of humanity. > > Note: The addition of the letter o to the word God gives us Good and > the addition of the letter d to the word Evil gives us Devil. Hence > we have the primary basis of any belief, the obvious difference of > good and evil portrayed by representations of a god and a devil and > perceived to be separate entities in a constant state of confrontation > and entanglement in pursuit of the aligned capitulation of all > humanity to one or the other. This of course has resulted in > humanity's constant state of dichotomous deity beliefs which are more > numerous than existing cultures. > > The fact that any human belief or for that matter any human 'Idea' is > contingent upon mans subjectivity therefore rendering it open for > multiple interpretations, conclusions, dictum and dogmas. Ultimately > the only "Void" in the whole scheme of things is the one left empty by > the deities themselves, who only make their presence known through the > imaginations of the human mind. > > The ancients sat around open fire pits in the wilderness needing to > find answers to the whys of life, they obviously couldn't find any > tangible answers so understandably they attributed all things to a > deity, one that could create all things, was omniscient, omnipresent > etc etc. > > Once man established human thought as being the veritable words of a > deity and also recognized that being a direct recipient of messages > from a deity had its advantages in the form of controlling the masses > of ignorant people, all hell broke loose. As people learned to > position themselves as transcendent beings deserving of higher status > in the cultural strata, they began to issue the dogma that is still > prevalent today. > As a convenience these same people used this position to declare other > people and other cultures as evil and initiate decrees for the > complete annihilation of any and all who would oppose the rule of > "GoOD". > > The world has become "littered" with religions and littered is a good > word because much so that is all they have become. Nothing has > changed on account of religion, no deity has descended from the sky as > a glowing light or ball of fire, man is still running around in the > dark without a clue, people are still taking up the sword in the name > of a god that wants to kill those who don't believe. Catholicism has > amassed great wealth in the process while catholics suck up to the > pope and pedophile priests, Muslims are out to kill thousands, gurus > are out in a multitude of different colors dancing and chanting > transcendence amidst human squalor and "new" religions are popping up > daily, claiming to be the new Truth drug. Its a circus to say the > least. > > Meanwhile back at the "Reality" ranch, the governments have a lanyard > wrapped around our gonads with their own form of religion, that being > the patriotic duty of all citizens to forfeit a good portion of their > funds to the people that boss them around, the patriotic duty to > blindly lay down your life as a pawn in some declared military > operation regardless of right or wrong and the duty to bend over and > take it without lubrication when they act irresponsibly. God giveth > and Gov taketh. > > On Feb 23, 6:51 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hey OM. > > > I guess we can say by message I mean scripture. What is holy > > scripture if not Gods message to humaity, encompassing teachings, Gods > > plans, what God requires of us etc... > > > The notion of life including a divine spark is included in this > > message, or where else would you have the idea from? I guess I am > > also talking about reveled truth, something that I certianly belive > > in. How can a theist not belive in such a thing? If the truth of God > > message is not reveled by God then the assumption is that it is made > > up by the minds of humans. > > Anybody could literaly say anything they liked, promote any idea they > > wanted about God and Gods plan, the ultimate authority on what God > > wants us to do, must come from God, otherwise, all manor of these > > 'truths' sping up, which of course makes it hard to choose wich one to > > belive. In every belife there must be a yardstick by which to measure > > the validity. Reveald truth is one of the ones that I use to measure > > religoin. > > > In Sikhi the very first lines of Guru Granth Sahib are: > > > 'Ikoncar, sat naam' Which translates literaly into '1 God, true > > name' But we know the problem with literal translations, and so I > > personaly translate it (wrongly or rightly I know not) as meaning, '1 > > God, whose name is true/truth' > > > Delving further the idea is thus: '1 God, who is the only absolute > > truth' > > > This is an example of such a message. > > > Yet from just this little line, many ideas are formulated, God is the > > only truth must also mean that God is immenent throughout the > > creation, and thus your idea of a divine spark in humanity is also > > addressed. > > > The problem I'm having curently is with dogma, and it's cultural > > bounderies. In the east it is rude and impolite to point your feet > > towards somebody. Hence show throwing or hiting somebody or > > somebodies effigy with your shoe is an insult, whilst washing > > sombodies feet is an act of supreame humility and respect. > > > We have an example of this in the Bilbe, with the prostitue washing > > the feet of Jesus. > > > This though is 100% cultural, and it's meaning is lost on those of a > > diffrant culture. Divine message, easpecialy if the intent is global > > should transcend culture, I think. > > > Why do I say this? It is virtualy impossible for us humans to thing > > outside of our cultrual norms. If this its true then God surely knows > > this and so any message from God, I would expect to be cultural-less, > > and timeless. relevant to all soscity over all time. Again > > otherwise the assumption is the message come from the minds of man. > > > On 23 Feb, 12:13, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Lee, if by ‘message’ you mean some linguistic directive or informative > > > event, the notion of such commentary by a deity transcending culture > > > is a strange one, no? Perhaps you mean things like “Don’t kill.” > > > “Treat others like you want to be treated” etc. I’m not sure. Perhaps > > > you could expand upon your premise here some, OK? > > > > Beyond revealed ‘truths’ (something I don’t embrace), perhaps we > > > should include the notion that life itself includes a divine spark… > > > shall we? If so, all sorts of results are possible. > > > > The issue here as I see it is inherent in the meaning of ‘theist’ > > > itself. . . one who believes in the existence of a god or gods. > > > Linguistically, the term ‘believes in’ has been interpreted in almost > > > countless different ways…each suited to support the sensibilities of > > > the interpreter. So, as interesting as analysis is, for such things, > > > few can find actual clarity. So, how does intuition fit into this? So > > > far, there seems to be a general consensus here that we all have this > > > ability. My guess is that even using intuition, core belief systems > > > can and do easily overshadow any direct application of such a rarefied > > > methodology. > > > > So, again, for me…it appears that one must clarify all core beliefs > > > first. Find out how/when/why they were formed…transcend any blind > > > beliefs with more informed ones…etc. How else do we have any hope for > > > knowing anything for sure? Yet, even here, difficulties abound as we > > > know. > > > > Returning to your theme here, your main issue seems to be “…how to > > > seperate the message of God from that of man.” A quick analysis here > > > may be of interest. What exactly is the difference? Do theists find > > > god something separate from themselves, thus requiring some sort of > > > objective qualifier of any ‘messages’ therefrom? One would have to > > > address the very nature of god here to have a chance at arriving at a > > > satisfactory answer it would seem. And, here again, we run into the > > > issue of confused beliefs that humans can come up with. So, what if we > > > assume that all thoughts…rational or not are to be considered? Is this > > > of any use? I’m sure not for some, yet it is an interesting question, > > > no? In such an epistemological pursuit, the subjective nature of all > > > concepts and language becomes readily apparent. So, back to your > > > question. Perhaps you wish to *know* on some deep level that which you > > > (or anyone) should follow as being divine will, is that more of the > > > issue for you? > > > > On Feb 23, 3:19 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > So you Atheists can of course get involded in this one, I really don't > > > > know why you should or what the interest for you would be, but do feel > > > > free. > > > > > I was thinking the other day about religion and culture. I'm somewhat > > > > worried about how to seperate the message of God from that of man. > > > > > So it suddenly struck me that any message that truely comes from God > > > > must trancend culture. > > > > > Thoughts?- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. 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