Slip, I'm less interested in the question of how you came to believe John Chapter 6 is just a story, and I came to believe it is history, than in what follows from these beliefs.
For the veracity of that account has radical implications for /what/ a man is and consequently what is good for man. Is man a creature made in God's image, laid low by sin, in need of a Savior? Or a trousered ape? On Sep 18, 7:51 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > Well I think we both reached the same conclusion in previous times. > John chapter 6 is quite the story but I'd be hard pressed to believe > that these events actually took place beyond the metaphor and allegory > that is consistent with biblical stories. For some strange reason > people have a need to believe things that are beyond our mundane > existence. But the real problem for me it that these things have > never existed beyond the age of antiquity. We have nothing today to > indicate validity of these events, therefore it is laid in the matter > of choice category of religious belief. I have to say, and not to > offend, but these beliefs are no different from the beliefs of other > primitive and nomadic peoples. If at any given time you told those > people their carved out of rock god was bullshit they would cut off > your head and feed you body to the dogs. You my friend are of the > same kind, dug in deep with a belief based on the ancients. What did > those people really know? What did they actually see? Were there no > such things as scams back then? > You still believe in a man god, something that was created out of the > imaginations of humanity. Books are a product of the human mind, a > creation out of the utilization of natural resource, paper and pen. > It might be half believable if it weren't for the fact that millions > of other people in the world have their own man god stories. Have you > talked to a Hassidic Jew lately, a Muslim, a Tibetan, Buddhist or any > of the other non-catholic or christian believers? > > OTO? > Is that Ordo Templi Orientis? > > On Sep 18, 8:01 pm, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Sep 13, 7:25 pm, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote:> You actually > > believe all those stories? > > > Of course I believe John Chapter 6. And of course you do not! And so > > we necessarily have /different/ ideas of the nature of man and what > > is really good for man. > > > One who believes man is created in the image by God, laid low by sin, > > in need of a Savor, will take a certain definite view on what is good > > for man. OTO one who believes man is a swarm of particles has a > > different view of the matter. > > > > It is a book alan, paper and pen, stories, allegory and metaphor. > > > > Quoting scripture is merely quoting a storyline. The bible is full to > > > the brim with contradiction and conflict. The old testament is full > > > of atrocity and vengeance, bloodshed, rape and murder by the command, > > > jurisdiction or under the auspices of the loving god. Then there were > > > 400 years without a word, the Romans were brutal and so was needed a > > > savior, and so one was born but who would believe it if it were born > > > like everyone else so only a virgin birth would do. And so the god > > > father in a demonstration of his love for humanity has his 'only' son > > > brutally tortured and killed. Wow, oh I forgot, that was because of > > > our sins, the sins we were born with. And now people have to give up > > > 10% of their earnings to the people who keep these stories alive or > > > else fire and brimstone. Great story! > > > > On Sep 13, 4:55 pm, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "By what means did the christian faith corner the market on knowing > > > > what > > > > is good for man?". By Christ the Lord, who said some pretty startling > > > > things on the topic, such as "I am the way and the truth and the life. > > > > No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 8:6). > > > > > And of course in John Chapter 6 v. 48, we learn from the Inventor of > > > > food about Real Food: > > > > > "I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, > > > > but they died;this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that > > > > one may eat it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from > > > > heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that > > > > I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." > > > > > The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us > > > > (his) flesh to eat?" Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, > > > > unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do > > > > not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood > > > > has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." > > > > > On Sep 13, 1:21 pm, DarkwaterBlight <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > As much as I can agree with much of what you say, and am a non- > > > > > christian believer in Christ... I am having a hard time digesting the > > > > > 'meat' of you statement which is contained in the last sentance. By > > > > > what means did the christian faith corner the market on knowing what > > > > > is good for man? You must be reffering to the 'Pauline' brand of > > > > > modern soothesayers that claim to follow Christ. The likes of wich > > > > > would say to the starving man; "God bless you in the name of Jesus, > > > > > I'll pray for you!" and not help the man's hunger or his condition. > > > > > > On Sep 13, 1:39 pm, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, you "can have a feeling of responsibility towards society and > > > > > > consider it your duty towards it and do what is good for you and the > > > > > > others". But what have feelings to do with doing good? > > > > > > > A man comes upon a starving man, knowing little about human nature, > > > > > > offers him a good thick steak and a glass of wine. But the starving > > > > > > man cannot digest the food. The first man had a sincere "feeling of > > > > > > responsibility", and really wanted to "do what is good for the > > > > > > other", > > > > > > but utterly botched it, because he is ignorant of what is really > > > > > > good > > > > > > for the other man. > > > > > > > No doubt those with a "humanitarian mindset" mean well, and act in > > > > > > accord with what they believe is good for fellow humans, just like > > > > > > the > > > > > > Jihadist, or the mercy killer who euthanizes the sick patient, or > > > > > > the > > > > > > abortionist, or Hitler. Everybody does what he /believes/ to be good > > > > > > for his fellow man. But only those who /know/ what is good for their > > > > > > neighbor can consistently deliver. > > > > > > > On the Christian view, if we do not know Christ, we do not know what > > > > > > man is, so it is quite impossible to do good for man, except by > > > > > > accident. > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 10:30 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > A person can have a humanitarian mindset regardless of religion. > > > > > > > You don't > > > > > > > have to believe in God to be good , you can have a feeling of > > > > > > > responsibility > > > > > > > towards society and consider it your duty towards it and do what > > > > > > > is good > > > > > > > for you and the others. Patriots need not be religious , yet they > > > > > > > feel a > > > > > > > great responsibility towards their country. There are so many > > > > > > > motives for a > > > > > > > man to do good to others irrespective of religion. On the other > > > > > > > hand people > > > > > > > are known to indulge in vice and ask God's forgiveness later. > > > > > > > > On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:00 PM, Alan Wostenberg > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Sure, "helping is primal". But the Jihadist, having a different > > > > > > > > theology than the Christian, believes he is helping you by > > > > > > > > converting > > > > > > > > you to Islam by the sword. Not so the Christian, for whom > > > > > > > > religion is > > > > > > > > the "The voluntary subjection of oneself to God". > > > > > > > > > The island of atheists? Sure, they'd "help others" for some > > > > > > > > definition > > > > > > > > of "help" and "others". I know something about the Christian > > > > > > > > command > > > > > > > > to love my neighbor but don't know the official atheist dogma on > > > > > > > > helping others. If one acted like there were no God why would > > > > > > > > he > > > > > > > > think he has any duty to help others? > > > > > > > > > On Sep 12, 8:28 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > AW; > > > > > > > > > Yes there is............. > > > > > > > > > I'll refer you to rigsy's sept. 6 10:15 am post as to my > > > > > > > > > "theistic > > > > > > > > > religiosity" comment. > > > > > > > > > > Also, people use therapy and AA like a religion- in fact, > > > > > > > > > they "use" a > > > > > > > > > lot of things in lieu of religion. What about jingoism? > > > > > > > > > <<<rigsy > > > > > > > > > > Do you think no one would help anyone else on an island of > > > > > > > > > atheists > > > > > > > > > because they didn't have a religion to tell them to do so? > > > > > > > > > Helping > > > > > > > > > is primal and innate as nurturing; religion and faith is human > > > > > > > > > construct and not necessity.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
