Your english is fine.. and well put it is not a topic I normally think about. Allan
On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:47 PM, [email protected] < [email protected]> wrote: > Ahhh at last I think we are getting somewhere. So your view then is > coloured by your upbringing and your social mores, like the rest of us > I suppose. > > I do get this, of course I do, but I'm attempting as I do to approach > qeustions of morality without emotion. I can't see any reason why > anybody should put the welfare of their families above their own > welfare. I get that most of us do, but I think we do so out of a > natural paternal/maturnal protective instinct. > > Like everything though it should all be thought of along a case by > case basis really. What if the man that kills himself gets his family > out of money problems with his life insurance, is this not the father > looking after the long term finacial prospects for his family? > > No I see nowt wrong, or indeed weak in decideing for oneself when to > end your own life. It should be gareenteed us as a basic freedom. > > On Jan 13, 11:14 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > It is all a matter of priorities , in my society well-being of one's > > family takes precedence over one's own well-being. > > > > On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 3:58 PM, [email protected] > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > You seem to be fixated on suicide because of depression, there are of > > > course so many more reasons to contemplate bowing out of this world. > > > > > I can see though that you have made a judgemtn call pressumably bassed > > > around your own feelings on what is strong and what is weak. Contrary > > > to your feelings my own tell me that suicide does not belong in the > > > realm of the weak but rather the strong. > > > > > Consider the father, who leaves behiond three young chidlren and a > > > greiving wife. He must surley(if in ihis right mind) be aware of the > > > pain he will be causeing by his death yet he still goes ahead with his > > > plan. The actions of a weak mind or a strong one? > > > > > Yes it does seem true that the family of a soldier killed in action do > > > have a sense of pride(what for I have no idea, but that perhaps is the > > > subject of another thread). But how would a suicide leave remeaing > > > family destitue, unless you mean in a differant way? > > > > > The more important question I have asked and yet still remains > > > unanswerd, is why is it better that a man keeps suffering to ease the > > > suffering on his family that his death may cause? What makes it > > > moraly correct (in your head) that the man contemplating suicide > > > foregoe the easing of his own suffering to ease the suffering of > > > others? Are you asking this man to be a marter, to suffer so that his > > > family do not? Do you suppose then that his suffering is somehow of a > > > lesser degree than the suffering his death may cuase his family? > > > > > On Jan 12, 2:33 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Death is certain , so why hurry it? You are going to die any way so > why not > > >> give yourself a chance ? Depressions are usually temporary and if a > person > > >> is patient most of the time it blows over and a man starts enjoying > life. In > > >> depression the assessment of the sufferer becomes negative , > everything > > >> looks black to him. It is not so , if the person tries to calm himself > , he > > >> sees the better side of life. Most of the time people who are living > really > > >> horrible life do not commit suicide , it is the weak and negative > people who > > >> commit suicide. They are not really suffering much , rather they have > just > > >> become negative and see everything in a morbid manner. As for shame , > a > > >> soldier who dies in a war leaves his family sad but proud and the > father > > >> who just goes and shoots himself leaves a family destitute and broken. > > > > >> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 8:50 PM, [email protected] < > > > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > Shame is sooooooo subjective my freind that I simply cannot belive > > >> > that all sucides are shamfull deaths, and why would any human feel > > >> > shame on themselfs for the sucicide of somebody dear to them? or > put > > >> > another why, I have read your claim and now I ask why it is so? > > > > >> > Why does the family of the man who commits sucide suffer an > indignaty? > > > > >> > Why should the same man instead suffer more so to eleviate the > shame, > > >> > suffering and indignaty of his family(these are your words, I really > > >> > have not the first idea why these people would feel any of this)? > > > > >> > As I have already asked you, why would you ask others to suffer so > > >> > that by doing so they cause > > >> > suffering in others to cease? Are you asking those who wish for 'no > > >> > more' to prolong their agnony for some imagined shame, or suffering > or > > >> > indignaty that their families may or may not feel? > > > > >> > Life is not sancrosanct, do you belive it is? > > > > >> > Some depression is indeed temporary, others suffer for the whole of > > >> > their lives, one rule then simply does not in this context surfice > for > > >> > all. > > > > >> > Yes death is inevitable, but do you not agree that a rational human > > >> > has every right to say when their life ends? > > > > >> > Are you concerns then simply about the mannor of death? A natural > > >> > death of old age or even a painfull death from illness is preferable > > >> > to takeing your own life? What is then about differant modes of > death > > >> > that may bring shame, indignaty and suffering to family members, or > > >> > may not? > > > > >> > Hope is divine. Everything is divine my freind. And you actualy > tell > > >> > us a massive whooper here > > >> > when you say: > > > > >> > 'Hope is divine and one should not ever give up because most of the > > >> > time things change for the better' > > > > >> > The reality is that for the vast majority of us and the vast > majority > > >> > of times, we do noty get things the way we want them, or things do > no > > >> > change for the better most of the time. > > > > >> > Life i a funny old thing, sometimes you get to live it exactly how > you > > >> > wish, mostly though you bear the bad times and when the good times > > >> > come you enjoy them. > > > > >> > On Jan 10, 5:26 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > When someone commits suicide it is not a simple death , rather it > is a > > >> > > shameful one for the family and often it leads to sorrow and > trouble for > > >> > the > > >> > > loved ones. The person who has died has escaped the frustrations > of life > > >> > but > > >> > > he has left a life of indignity and sorrow for his children , if > had > > >> > borne > > >> > > with his suffering a bit more he would have got over his troubles > and > > >> > saved > > >> > > his family from much indignity and frustration. Most of the times > a > > >> > person > > >> > > commits suicide in a mood of desperation which if had borne a bit > he > > >> > would > > >> > > have got over it and would have gone about his life in a much > better > > >> > frame > > >> > > of mind.Depression is temporary and runs it course , after which > the > > >> > > sufferer goes about his work in a better frame of mind. Again > death is > > >> > > inevitable and no matter how much you are suffering it will end > one day , > > >> > so > > >> > > why not keep hope and give yourself another chance for whether you > are > > >> > like > > >> > > it or not death will knock at your door sooner or later , so why > prepone > > >> > > death. Hope is divine and one should not ever give up because most > of the > > >> > > time things change for the better , and as you will die anyway > there is > > >> > no > > >> > > harm in being hopeful for the remaining period of your life. > > > > >> > > On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 5:57 PM, [email protected] < > > > > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > Sorry I have to call tosh on this one. People die and when they > do > > >> > > > those left behind DO get over their deaths. Why would a loved > ones > > >> > > > death be pain 100 times over? Death is inevitable depression is > a > > >> > > > living death for some. Pain 100 times over? Not even close. > > > > >> > > > On Jan 9, 9:39 pm, Manfraco Frank Elder <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > > > Hi everybody! > > >> > > > > I have to say that I have heard many time that one wishes to > end it > > >> > > > > all, so, suicide is on some people minds when they do not see > a way > > >> > > > > out from their sorrows and pains. At the same time I have to > say that > > >> > > > > you are right RP when you say that pain will be increased a > hundred > > >> > > > > times to the people surrounding those who commit suicide, but > what > > >> > > > > could those same people have done to prevent that suicide? I > think > > >> > > > > that is the question that we have to ask ourselves, when we > find > > >> > > > > ourselves in such a situation? > > >> > > > > My regards to you all, > > >> > > > > Manfraco > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 9, 9:53 pm, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > I tend to agree with the insurmountable suffering, but even > there I > > >> > am > > >> > > > not > > >> > > > > > sure. I do know that in long duration fasting the hunger > only last > > >> > for > > >> > > > a > > >> > > > > > few days especially if you find something to occupy your > time. I do > > >> > > > know > > >> > > > > > that taking advantage of the situations one is in and open > up to > > >> > the > > >> > > > > > experience can lead into some pretty amazing situations. > That has > > >> > > > occurred > > >> > > > > > in the past for me, 'What works I am not about to fix.' > > > > >> > > > > > Now the teenage in depression,, well that comes between him > and the > > >> > > > > > Creator,but I tend to think that the emotional turmoil they > are > > >> > going > > >> > > > > > through will then continue through all eternity and their > death > > >> > will be > > >> > > > > > added to it. > > >> > > > > > But what do I know.. just the reasons I don't like the idea > for > > >> > myself. > > >> > > > > > Allan > > > > >> > > > > > On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 9:42 PM, Ash <[email protected]> > wrote: > > >> > > > > > > On 1/8/2011 9:28 AM, RP Singh wrote: > > > > >> > > > > > >> When a man is under depression he tries to escape pain by > > >> > committing > > >> > > > > > >> suicide , but does he really escape pain? No he increases > it > > >> > > > hundredfold. > > >> > > > > > >> The pain and sorrow that his family and friends feel at > his > > >> > demise > > >> > > > is > > >> > > > > > >> actually a pain that is experienced by that individual. > Escapism > > >> > is > > >> > > > no > > >> > > > > > >> remedy , the only way is to struggle and bear through all > > >> > hardships. > > >> > > > To > > >> > > > > > >> fight throughout is the only way and as death will > eventually > > >> > come, > > >> > > > why > > >> > > > > > >> prepone it. > > > > >> > > > > > > And there are worse things than death. There are many ways > > >> > however to > > >> > > > > > > minimize on the effects to others, such as drinking a > bottle of > > >> > rum > > >> > > > and > > >> > > > > > > passing out while out camping or hunting in extreme cold. > Making > > >> > it > > >> > > > look > > >> > > > > > > accidental however deprives others from the truth of why, > and > > >> > there > > >> > > > is > > >> > > > > > > always the element of wasted potential to reconcile. I > agree one > > >> > > > should have > > >> > > > > > > the right to die with some dignity if facing > insurmountable > > >> > > > suffering, but > > >> > > > > > > it should be held a sacred right and protected as much as > > >> > possible > > >> > > > from > > > > ... > > > > read more ยป- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - -- ( ) I_D Allan If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
