Long deliberations , introspection , observation and study are the precursors of the training I speak of. You have read Patanjali yoga , I ask you to widen your browsing and deliberate and introspect in solitude , if possible. I cannot give you any guarantee as you yourself cannot to those who are following the Raja yoga system of Patanjali with a sureshot experience of the absolute. Of course you can give an assurance in a future life which I cannot as I don't believe in an after-life.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > "... it takes a trained understanding to know the truth." > > RP, tell us more specifically about > > (1) training you speak of, > (2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and > (3) the truth we will know upon the understanding. > > Will you ? > > On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most >> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to >> know the truth. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement. >> > Allan >> >> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use >> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what >> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent >> >> people ? >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as >> >> > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- >> >> > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." >> >> >> > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I was >> >> > speaking of ! >> >> >> > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not practice >> >> > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they >> >> > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons, >> >> > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose >> >> > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over >> >> > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god >> >> > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from >> >> > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. >> >> >> > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could >> >> >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- as >> >> >> an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- >> >> >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. Reflection >> >> >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of >> >> >> degree". >> >> >> >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean >> >> >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall call >> >> >> > it an inferance. >> >> >> >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the >> >> >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these >> >> >> > markers. >> >> >> >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are >> >> >> > violent >> >> >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a >> >> >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? >> >> >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical health >> >> >> > > of >> >> >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and >> >> >> > > childhood >> >> >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social influences, >> >> >> > > etc. >> >> >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason >> >> >> > > doesn't >> >> >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are >> >> >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one >> >> >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does not >> >> >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe >> >> >> > > these >> >> >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to reject >> >> >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a child >> >> >> > > who >> >> >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being >> >> >> > > similar >> >> >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. >> >> >> >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. >> >> >> >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best guess. >> >> >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need to >> >> >> > > > coreleate all causes. >> >> >> >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom >> >> >> > > > of >> >> >> > > > choice. >> >> >> >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences >> >> >> > > > > therefore >> >> >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not >> >> >> > > > > convince me >> >> >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. >> >> >> >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice >> >> >> > > > > back to >> >> >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) >> >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will >> >> >> > > > > > are >> >> >> > > > > > seperate things at all. >> >> >> >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. >> >> >> >> > > > > > Free will. >> >> >> >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> >> >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding >> >> >> > > > > > > up at C? I >> >> >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by >> >> >> > > > > > > Sophocles. >> >> >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner >> >> >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but >> >> >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think >> >> >> > > > > > > there is a >> >> >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices all >> >> >> > > > > > > the time >> >> >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have >> >> >> > > > > > > > made a choice. >> >> >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion from >> >> >> > > > > > > > us and I'l >> >> >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force >> >> >> > > > > > > > anybody into >> >> >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will at >> >> >> > > > > > > > > our disposal- >> >> >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced >> >> >> > > > > > > > > onto many paths >> >> >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > that can be a bitch, >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Allan >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this question, >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Jo; but essentially >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > very powerful >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic tradition >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > suggests that since >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > immersed in a "sea" of >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > by immutable >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing else (which >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > actions are no more >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > constrained at an >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When we >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > think we make >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "stroking" itself since, in >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions are preceeded >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (interesting work by Benjamin >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of more >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to make >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > the same decisions >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > over and over again given the same set of >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > variables, since our >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > cognition is hard wired, and its operations are >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > governed by the self >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > same chemical processes and physical laws. Hence >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > the question: do we >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > have free will? and if we do, how much free will do >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > we have? >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > On Aug 2, 7:44 pm, Jo <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> I don't understand how some can say we don't have >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> free will. You can >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> choose to do anything you want at any given time. >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> How is that not free >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> will? >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Aug 2, 12:51 pm, archytas <[email protected]> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >>> "We have access to a technology that would have >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >>> looked like sorcery in >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >>> Descartes's day: the ability to peer inside >> >> ... >> >> read more »
