> Long deliberations , introspection , observation and study are the > precursors of the training I speak of.
What are each of these... in terms of process and field ? Remember " kshetra " that Gita uses ! > ... following the Raja yoga system of Patanjali... What is the system as it means to you ? Surely, you have followed it and hence can explain. If you do not believe in after-life or re-incarnation, I can assure you you cannot beleive in Raja Yoga ! What about the specifics of training ? ... understanding ? ... truth ? RP, if you do not know... say so ! On Aug 11, 4:38 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > You have read Patanjali yoga , > I ask you to widen your browsing and deliberate and introspect in > solitude , if possible. I cannot give you any guarantee as you > yourself cannot to those who are with a sureshot experience of the absolute. > Of course you > can give an assurance in a future life which I cannot as I don't > believe in an after-life. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > "... it takes a trained understanding to know the truth." > > > RP, tell us more specifically about > > > (1) training you speak of, > > (2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and > > (3) the truth we will know upon the understanding. > > > Will you ? > > > On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most > >> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to > >> know the truth. > > >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement. > >> > Allan > > >> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use > >> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what > >> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent > >> >> people ? > > >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > >> >> > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > >> >> > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." > > >> >> > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I was > >> >> > speaking of ! > > >> >> > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not practice > >> >> > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they > >> >> > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons, > >> >> > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose > >> >> > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over > >> >> > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god > >> >> > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from > >> >> > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. > > >> >> > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could > >> >> >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- > >> >> >> as > >> >> >> an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > >> >> >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. > >> >> >> Reflection > >> >> >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter of > >> >> >> degree". > > >> >> >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean > >> >> >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall > >> >> >> > call > >> >> >> > it an inferance. > > >> >> >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the > >> >> >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these > >> >> >> > markers. > > >> >> >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are > >> >> >> > violent > >> >> >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a > >> >> >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > >> >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical > >> >> >> > > health > >> >> >> > > of > >> >> >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and > >> >> >> > > childhood > >> >> >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social influences, > >> >> >> > > etc. > >> >> >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason > >> >> >> > > doesn't > >> >> >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are > >> >> >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one > >> >> >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does > >> >> >> > > not > >> >> >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe > >> >> >> > > these > >> >> >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to > >> >> >> > > reject > >> >> >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a > >> >> >> > > child > >> >> >> > > who > >> >> >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being > >> >> >> > > similar > >> >> >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > >> >> >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > >> >> >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best > >> >> >> > > > guess. > >> >> >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we need > >> >> >> > > > to > >> >> >> > > > coreleate all causes. > > >> >> >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our freedom > >> >> >> > > > of > >> >> >> > > > choice. > > >> >> >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences > >> >> >> > > > > therefore > >> >> >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not > >> >> >> > > > > convince me > >> >> >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > >> >> >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice > >> >> >> > > > > back to > >> >> >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > >> >> >> > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will > >> >> >> > > > > > are > >> >> >> > > > > > seperate things at all. > > >> >> >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > >> >> >> > > > > > Free will. > > >> >> >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > >> >> >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and winding > >> >> >> > > > > > > up at C? I > >> >> >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by > >> >> >> > > > > > > Sophocles. > >> >> >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner > >> >> >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but > >> >> >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I think > >> >> >> > > > > > > there is a > >> >> >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices > >> >> >> > > > > > > all > >> >> >> > > > > > > the time > >> >> >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > >> >> >> > > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have > >> >> >> > > > > > > > made a choice. > >> >> >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion > >> >> >> > > > > > > > from > >> >> >> > > > > > > > us and I'l > >> >> >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force > >> >> >> > > > > > > > anybody into > >> >> >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > at > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > our disposal- > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > onto many paths > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing it > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > that can be a bitch, > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Allan > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > question, > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Jo; but essentially > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > very powerful > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > suggests that since > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > immersed in a "sea" of > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, regulated > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > by immutable > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing else (which > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > actions are no more > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > constrained at an > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. When > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > we > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > think we make > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "stroking" itself since, in > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions are preceeded > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (interesting work by Benjamin > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and in > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of more > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to > >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > make > > ... > > read more »
