Heheh I find that the opposite is true. That in fact most people change as they age. Are any of us now the same people we where in our teen age years?
Beliefs change, people change all things change, this is the way of the universe, all things move nothing is static or stagnant. The changes in ourselves to our beliefs are a function of course of our subjective minds. Subjectivity abounds even with questions on what we may term truth. No wonder then that no two people hold to exactly the same belifs. We each of us take even from ridged spirtual beliefs that which 'makes sense' and discard that which does not. Of course what makes sense is likely to change as our experiances change and new experinaces are had and new thoughts are thought. This is normal isn't it? On Aug 11, 5:23 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > If I have read religious and Yoga books, it doesn't mean that I > believe in them absolutely. Reading the Gita doesn't mean accepting it > verbatim , I have talked about deliberations which means change of > beliefs after much thought. Initially I might have believed in > re-incarnation , but after much deliberations I rejected this belief > as ill-founded. From deliberations and introspection , you learn to > discard ill-founded beliefs and learn afresh. Introspection means > looking within yourself , about your actions and motives etc. you > learn from it. Most people stick to their earliest beliefs , and > change appears contradictory to them. I have changed a lot over the > years , maybe I have had more experience than you. > > > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Long deliberations , introspection , observation and study are the > >> precursors of the training I speak of. > > > What are each of these... in terms of process and field ? Remember " > > kshetra " that Gita uses ! > > >> ... following the Raja yoga system of Patanjali... > > > What is the system as it means to you ? Surely, you have followed it > > and hence can explain. > > > If you do not believe in after-life or re-incarnation, I can assure > > you you cannot beleive in Raja Yoga ! > > > What about the specifics of training ? ... understanding ? ... > > truth ? > > > RP, if you do not know... say so ! > > > On Aug 11, 4:38 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> You have read Patanjali yoga , > >> I ask you to widen your browsing and deliberate and introspect in > >> solitude , if possible. I cannot give you any guarantee as you > >> yourself cannot to those who are with a sureshot experience of the > >> absolute. Of course you > >> can give an assurance in a future life which I cannot as I don't > >> believe in an after-life. > > >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > "... it takes a trained understanding to know the truth." > > >> > RP, tell us more specifically about > > >> > (1) training you speak of, > >> > (2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and > >> > (3) the truth we will know upon the understanding. > > >> > Will you ? > > >> > On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most > >> >> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to > >> >> know the truth. > > >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <[email protected]> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a > >> >> > statement. > >> >> > Allan > > >> >> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use > >> >> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what > >> >> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent > >> >> >> people ? > > >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as > >> >> >> > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- > >> >> >> > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." > > >> >> >> > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I > >> >> >> > was > >> >> >> > speaking of ! > > >> >> >> > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not > >> >> >> > practice > >> >> >> > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they > >> >> >> > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and > >> >> >> > automatons, > >> >> >> > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to > >> >> >> > choose > >> >> >> > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it > >> >> >> > over > >> >> >> > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god > >> >> >> > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from > >> >> >> > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. > > >> >> >> > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I > >> >> >> >> could > >> >> >> >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon > >> >> >> >> ourselves- as > >> >> >> >> an object- we have created distance from those > >> >> >> >> markers-determiners- > >> >> >> >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. > >> >> >> >> Reflection > >> >> >> >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a > >> >> >> >> matter of > >> >> >> >> degree". > > >> >> >> >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does > >> >> >> >> > mean > >> >> >> >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall > >> >> >> >> > call > >> >> >> >> > it an inferance. > > >> >> >> >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the > >> >> >> >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of > >> >> >> >> > these > >> >> >> >> > markers. > > >> >> >> >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are > >> >> >> >> > violent > >> >> >> >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is > >> >> >> >> > it a > >> >> >> >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? > > >> >> >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical > >> >> >> >> > > health > >> >> >> >> > > of > >> >> >> >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and > >> >> >> >> > > childhood > >> >> >> >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social > >> >> >> >> > > influences, > >> >> >> >> > > etc. > >> >> >> >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason > >> >> >> >> > > doesn't > >> >> >> >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are > >> >> >> >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that > >> >> >> >> > > one > >> >> >> >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes > >> >> >> >> > > does not > >> >> >> >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe > >> >> >> >> > > these > >> >> >> >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to > >> >> >> >> > > reject > >> >> >> >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a > >> >> >> >> > > child > >> >> >> >> > > who > >> >> >> >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being > >> >> >> >> > > similar > >> >> >> >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. > > >> >> >> >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> > > wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. > > >> >> >> >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best > >> >> >> >> > > > guess. > >> >> >> >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we > >> >> >> >> > > > need to > >> >> >> >> > > > coreleate all causes. > > >> >> >> >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our > >> >> >> >> > > > freedom > >> >> >> >> > > > of > >> >> >> >> > > > choice. > > >> >> >> >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and > >> >> >> >> > > > > experiences > >> >> >> >> > > > > therefore > >> >> >> >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not > >> >> >> >> > > > > convince me > >> >> >> >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow > >> >> >> >> > > > > choice > >> >> >> >> > > > > back to > >> >> >> >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) > > >> >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free > >> >> >> >> > > > > > will > >> >> >> >> > > > > > are > >> >> >> >> > > > > > seperate things at all. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > Free will. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > winding > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > up at C? I > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Sophocles. > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > think > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > there is a > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > choices all > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > the time > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > have > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > made a choice. > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > desicion from > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > us and I'l > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > anybody into > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > will at > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > our disposal- > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > forced > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > onto many paths > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > seeing it > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > choices that can be a bitch, > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Allan > > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:- Hide quoted > >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > text - > > - Show quoted text -... > > read more »
