If I have read religious and Yoga books, it doesn't mean that I believe in them absolutely. Reading the Gita doesn't mean accepting it verbatim , I have talked about deliberations which means change of beliefs after much thought. Initially I might have believed in re-incarnation , but after much deliberations I rejected this belief as ill-founded. From deliberations and introspection , you learn to discard ill-founded beliefs and learn afresh. Introspection means looking within yourself , about your actions and motives etc. you learn from it. Most people stick to their earliest beliefs , and change appears contradictory to them. I have changed a lot over the years , maybe I have had more experience than you.
On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 9:32 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: >> Long deliberations , introspection , observation and study are the >> precursors of the training I speak of. > > What are each of these... in terms of process and field ? Remember " > kshetra " that Gita uses ! > >> ... following the Raja yoga system of Patanjali... > > What is the system as it means to you ? Surely, you have followed it > and hence can explain. > > If you do not believe in after-life or re-incarnation, I can assure > you you cannot beleive in Raja Yoga ! > > What about the specifics of training ? ... understanding ? ... > truth ? > > RP, if you do not know... say so ! > > On Aug 11, 4:38 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> You have read Patanjali yoga , >> I ask you to widen your browsing and deliberate and introspect in >> solitude , if possible. I cannot give you any guarantee as you >> yourself cannot to those who are with a sureshot experience of the >> absolute. Of course you >> can give an assurance in a future life which I cannot as I don't >> believe in an after-life. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: >> > "... it takes a trained understanding to know the truth." >> >> > RP, tell us more specifically about >> >> > (1) training you speak of, >> > (2) the understanding that would be accrue with the training, and >> > (3) the truth we will know upon the understanding. >> >> > Will you ? >> >> > On Aug 11, 2:45 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I can open my fingers or close them , i.e. free will is obvious. Most >> >> people can see only the obvious , it takes a trained understanding to >> >> know the truth. >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 11:39 AM, allan deheretic <[email protected]> >> >> wrote: >> >> > Sorry RP Vam has both the wisdom and authority to make such a statement. >> >> > Allan >> >> >> > On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 4:20 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Vehement language , Vam , I don't think you have the authority to use >> >> >> such words against others. Maybe , you are a great success but what >> >> >> makes you think that all others having a determinist view are spent >> >> >> people ? >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > "... if we can reflect upon ourselves- as >> >> >> > an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- >> >> >> > and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions." >> >> >> >> > This is the kind of experiential understanding and empowerment I was >> >> >> > speaking of ! >> >> >> >> > Most people do not discover this. And if they do, they do not >> >> >> > practice >> >> >> > it enough to lead to empowerment. It is because of this that they >> >> >> > continue to look upon themselves as programmed robots and automatons, >> >> >> > and continue to doubt the clear measure of power they have to choose >> >> >> > their beliefs, thoughts, words and action. Then they project it over >> >> >> > entire humanity, as us all being some creation of some obscure god >> >> >> > playing fiddle. Fking shit ! Such regressives should be barred from >> >> >> > public activity, and sent to a correction facility instead. >> >> >> >> > On Aug 10, 5:53 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> Well, Hocking made some sense to me about Free Will- though I could >> >> >> >> read it again. It goes like this- if we can reflect upon ourselves- >> >> >> >> as >> >> >> >> an object- we have created distance from those markers-determiners- >> >> >> >> and can choose in an independent manner- thoughts, actions. >> >> >> >> Reflection >> >> >> >> is an endless process rather than fixed. But- "freedom is a matter >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> degree". >> >> >> >> >> On Aug 10, 5:26 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > Yes it does not mean that that they do not exist, but it does mean >> >> >> >> > that this stance is as aI say a best guess, or perhaps we shall >> >> >> >> > call >> >> >> >> > it an inferance. >> >> >> >> >> > Yes again I belive that these markers may well be part of the >> >> >> >> > desicion, yet you can still choose to act contrary to any of these >> >> >> >> > markers. >> >> >> >> >> > If you are non violent you act in a violent mannor, if you are >> >> >> >> > violent >> >> >> >> > you can choose to not use violence. And what is a marker, is it a >> >> >> >> > force or as the word suggests a marker? >> >> >> >> >> > On Aug 9, 10:23 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > We can point to many causes- our genes, mental and physical >> >> >> >> > > health >> >> >> >> > > of >> >> >> >> > > mother before, during and after pregnancy, early bonding and >> >> >> >> > > childhood >> >> >> >> > > development, placement in family, economic and social >> >> >> >> > > influences, >> >> >> >> > > etc. >> >> >> >> > > Even the country of birth and historical period matter. Reason >> >> >> >> > > doesn't >> >> >> >> > > kick in until around age seven and many early influences are >> >> >> >> > > forgotten, misinterpreted or markers for life. The fact that one >> >> >> >> > > cannot readily trace back to initial influences and causes does >> >> >> >> > > not >> >> >> >> > > mean that they don't exist. At the moment of choice, I believe >> >> >> >> > > these >> >> >> >> > > markers are part of the decision- even if the decision is to >> >> >> >> > > reject >> >> >> >> > > the influences and do the exact opposite of the past- like a >> >> >> >> > > child >> >> >> >> > > who >> >> >> >> > > swears he will be different than the parent but winds up being >> >> >> >> > > similar >> >> >> >> > > or tries to out-do the parent and fails. >> >> >> >> >> > > On Aug 9, 8:38 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > Heh heh Rigsy. >> >> >> >> >> > > > Nope I think the deterministic stance is kinda like a best >> >> >> >> > > > guess. >> >> >> >> > > > I mean for us to be sure that our lives are determined we >> >> >> >> > > > need to >> >> >> >> > > > coreleate all causes. >> >> >> >> >> > > > Besides, I do not belive that cause and effect bars our >> >> >> >> > > > freedom >> >> >> >> > > > of >> >> >> >> > > > choice. >> >> >> >> >> > > > On Aug 9, 12:41 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > One's will is shaped by numerous influences and experiences >> >> >> >> > > > > therefore >> >> >> >> > > > > it is determined. Notes from the Underground-D does not >> >> >> >> > > > > convince me >> >> >> >> > > > > otherwise. I'll see if Hocking can offer something. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > You really have to be a detective of self and follow choice >> >> >> >> > > > > back to >> >> >> >> > > > > its root cause. Maybe you are too young or busy! :-) >> >> >> >> >> > > > > On Aug 8, 6:12 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > Ahh then I see. I do not belive that choice and free will >> >> >> >> > > > > > are >> >> >> >> > > > > > seperate things at all. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > Let us look at the words. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > Free will. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > The ability to chose in acordance with your will. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > On Aug 8, 11:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Haven't you noticed trying to get from A to B and >> >> >> >> > > > > > > winding >> >> >> >> > > > > > > up at C? I >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have. So far I have been going over some stuff by >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Sophocles. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > Epictetus, Zola, Marx&Engels, Huxley and Skinner >> >> >> >> > > > > > > (Determinists) but >> >> >> >> > > > > > > have to read Dostoyevsky and Hocking (Free Will). I >> >> >> >> > > > > > > think >> >> >> >> > > > > > > there is a >> >> >> >> > > > > > > difference between choice and free will. I make choices >> >> >> >> > > > > > > all >> >> >> >> > > > > > > the time >> >> >> >> > > > > > > but am not sure my will is really free. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > On Aug 8, 5:07 am, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > Ohh I disagree with this entirley Rigsy. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > At the time the Minds says take action B, then we have >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > made a choice. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > I question the ability of things to force a desicion >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > from >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > us and I'l >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > ask once again is it possible for somebody to force >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > anybody into >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > makeing a choice that they do not want to? >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > On Aug 6, 2:22 pm, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > I disagree that we possess or always have free will >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > at >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > our disposal- >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > even the civil laws make distinctions. We are forced >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > onto many paths >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > and decisions- softly or harshly. >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > On Aug 5, 2:04 pm, Allan Heretic >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > You lays have free will no matter how you seeing >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > it >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > created. It is the consequences of those choices >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > that can be a bitch, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > Allan >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > On 4 aug. 2011, at 17:48, paradox >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > There are a number of approaches to this >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > question, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Jo; but essentially >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > and in summary (and i do a great injustice to a >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > very powerful >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > philosophical school), the deterministic >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > tradition >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > suggests that since >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > we''re fundamentally bounded chemical systems >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > immersed in a "sea" of >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > ever more elaborate chemical processes, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > regulated >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > by immutable >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (replicable and predictive) physical laws, and >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > nothing else (which >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > takes you back to the mind/brain question), our >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > actions are no more >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > than expressions of these chemical processes, >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > constrained at an >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > aggregate level by universal physical laws. >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > When we >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > think we make >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions based on choice, it is the mind >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > "stroking" itself since, in >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of "proximate" action, we know that our >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > decisions are preceeded >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > in time by a neuro-electrcal "footprint" >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > (interesting work by Benjamin >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > Libet, presented in his book "Mind Time"); and >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > in >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > terms of more >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > deliberative action, we are pretty certain to >> >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > > make >> >> ... >> >> read more »
