All cultures I've come across practice deceit - even chimpanzee ones. Thus the espoused theories run with theories-in-use. We used to hear the phrase 'keeping up with the Jones' a lot here. Cultures are often equally daft. There's one with no concept of paternity via sex, another that expects rotten selfish behaviour and another that treats its leaders with open disgust. Cultures are the problem in many cases, little more than Idols of the tribe. I take these as important: 1.hospitality 2.non-violence 3. mutual, tolerating respect 4.honesty 5. good times 8.mutual help 7.near equality 8. open, countervailing institutions 9.control over leadership 10.self-sustainability (including population control) 11.care for the elderly and disabled 12.respect and encouragement of innovation 13.means to prevent serfdom via capital accumulation, in few hands 14. anti-bureaucracy and the presence of satire.joy and thinking well of others
On Oct 14, 12:25 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > The first two could be elegance of line and material; the second set > is do-able if you can retreat from the worldliness. > > What about joy and humor? Are the cultures too formal and ritualistic? > Yet- they like the sound of slurped noodles which makes me smile. > > On Oct 13, 10:28 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Eastern thought : > > > Manifest plainness > > Embrace simplicity > > Reduce selfishness > > Have few desires. > > > ~ Lao Tzu ~ > > > On Oct 13, 6:27 pm, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > When and where did you come across a protest by more than a million > > > people against the govt of the day, without a single instance of > > > violence or bloodshed... to the point when the govt had to bend and > > > give in, further brought to its knees and accede to people's demand ? > > > > It happened here. Why ? Because everybody can relate to something > > > inviolable in our learning from our past, acquired over millenia ! > > > > As I said... I can't fathom a society beset with a million miseries > > > that can still radiate a million smiles, where people without means > > > and expectations still mean well of others, still find something > > > valuable about themselves and their life to be helpful towards others, > > > still look up to the sun in the hopeless mornings, and to the moon in > > > the unbearable nights, and say to themselves, " All is well !" > > > > It's a society where the worldly and the other-worldly is so enmeshed > > > in each other that people easily transit from one to the other... it's > > > revealing of the "cooling thoughts" I previously spoke about. > > > > On Oct 13, 12:22 pm, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I would like to understand what you are saying, Vam. Where is the > > > > cooling > > > > thoughts within all this "chaos"? Do not judge? I'm afraid I'm not > > > > getting > > > > your point yet. I hope you will enlighten me. Thank you for your > > > > patience > > > > with me. > > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > " I need to learn more about Eastern ways. I have read some things but > > > > > have not really integrated them into practice and thinking. I am > > > > > intrigued." > > > > > > Don came back with a stereotype pic of India. I found it too idiotic a > > > > > start to take it forward. > > > > > > People who visit India say they are " overwhelmed !" When there's > > > > > everything around you, anybody would be overcome. When you see conmen > > > > > and that fakir who'd pee on piled billions without a thought... it > > > > > simply becomes inexplicable... the poorest slum before the richest > > > > > mansion in the world, and the integration flowing in between, before > > > > > our eye, make it impossible to reduce the world, life and being to > > > > > black and white images. Judgement then would only add to the chaos ! > > > > > > So much misery and so many smiles... it's a chaos that works all > > > > > right. But if it doesn't blow up in a million mutinies, the credit > > > > > must go to those cooling thoughts from millenia before that spread all > > > > > over from Asia Minor, Central, East and Far East. > > > > > > Welcome to Eastern Thought ! > > > > > > On Oct 13, 6:41 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Some Protestant religions equated material success with God's favor > > > > > > so > > > > > > that also played a part but yes- the West loves its rags-to-riches > > > > > > darlings, consider those who succeed have the right ambition and > > > > > > virtues- it's rather like a sport, isn't it? I seem to be missing a > > > > > > profit incentive in my genetic make-up- my parents were fiercely > > > > > > materialistic but then I think they had seen the Great Depression > > > > > > with > > > > > > their own eyes even though they were doing fine during the 30's- > > > > > > like > > > > > > one of those peppy films. Yet ownership has risks because you are > > > > > > stuck and culture-laws-wars can turn life upside down so mother > > > > > > saved > > > > > > string and rubber bands as well as a slew of dire warnings. :-) > > > > > > > I need to learn more about Eastern ways. I have read some things but > > > > > > have not really integrated them into practice and thinking. I am > > > > > > intrigued. > > > > > > > On Oct 11, 11:32 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > The West admires those who push themselves to the top... that's > > > > > > > how > > > > > > > they've structured their entire reward and punishment regime, and > > > > > > > their economics... marked by ownership. > > > > > > > > The East has always propagated and believed in abnegating oneself, > > > > > > > putting one's ego aside... marked by compassion... despite that > > > > > > > alpha > > > > > > > tendency of raising and riding on the ego that nevertheless > > > > > > > happened > > > > > > > all the time. > > > > > > > > These are TOTALLY different perspective to living, and values to > > > > > > > guide > > > > > > > oneself by ! But the eastern way is possible, and perhaps the > > > > > > > only way > > > > > > > out, if only China can unlearn its western ( marxist ) ideology ! > > > > > > > > On Oct 11, 5:17 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I am currently reading Hoffer- books left "behind" by my ex > > > > > > > > while he > > > > > > > > has my copy of the libretto of "Tristan and Isolde" and > > > > > > > > Goethe's " > > > > > The > > > > > > > > Sorrows of Young Werther", etc. Quite amusing, at this point, > > > > > > > > as he > > > > > > > > was a staunch Republican and I, an artsy type back in the 70's- > > > > > > > > perhaps we were trying on each others "shoes". The Hoffer books > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > "The True Believer", "The Passionate State of Mind" and "The > > > > > > > > Ordeal > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Change" and I find "Believer" right on the mark re today's > > > > > > > > various > > > > > > > > protests- if one can truly call them that. > > > > > > > > > By "manners", do you mean ettiquette? I think the function of > > > > > > > > both is > > > > > > > > to prevent humans from ripping each other apart- literally- and > > > > > > > > provide "space" to navigate society. > > > > > > > > > The competition among humans is fierce and that's the myth of > > > > > liberty/ > > > > > > > > democracy- since groups/ideologies are safer than independence > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > individuality. > > > > > > > > > "Faith in a holy cause is to a considerable extent a substitute > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the lost faith in ourselves."//The less justified a man is in > > > > > claiming > > > > > > > > excellence for his own self, the more ready is he to claim all > > > > > > > > excellence for his nation, his religion, his race or holy > > > > > > > > cause."// > > > > > "A > > > > > > > > man is likely to mind his own business when it is worth > > > > > > > > minding."//"The burning conviction that we have a holy duty > > > > > > > > toward > > > > > > > > others is often a way of attaching our drowning selves to > > > > > > > > passing > > > > > > > > raft. What looks like giving a hand is often a holding on for > > > > > > > > dear > > > > > > > > life. Take away our holy duties and you leave our lives puny and > > > > > > > > meaningless. There is no doubt that in exchanging a > > > > > > > > self-centered for > > > > > > > > a selfless life we gain enormously in self-esteem. The vanity > > > > > > > > of the > > > > > > > > selfless even those who practice utmost humility, is > > > > > > > > boundless."// > > > > > > > > from "The True Believer"- Eric Hoffer > > > > > > > > > Beyond these early quotes, I am reminded over and over again of > > > > > > > > Obama's style and appeal to the masses. Some things never > > > > > > > > change. > > > > > > > > > On Oct 10, 6:24 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I'm always rather saddened when you bring up something like > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > rigsy > > > > > > > > > - only because our UK newspapers are so unlikely too. > > > > > > > > > Civilisation > > > > > > > > > and Its Discontents is a key volume in my subject area, > > > > > > > > > through > > > > > > > > > Melanie Klein and the Tavistock School. I tend to the view of > > > > > Freud > > > > > > > > > in the eloquent link, though there was madness in his > > > > > > > > > practice. My > > > > > > > > > own stuff tends towards the way 'manners' prevent a > > > > > > > > > transparency of > > > > > > > > > interests (Elias, Veblen) and how much intellectual effort is > > > > > wasted > > > > > > > > > in this. It's pretty obvious that the material could be a > > > > > > > > > very > > > > > small > > > > > > > > > part of human existence if we weren't in such competition in > > > > > > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 10, 7:03 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/09/freud-as-philosopher > > > > > > > > > > > A lively essay, I felt, explained some conservative views > > > > > > > > > > well- > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > repression and self-restraint, ambivalence, emotional > > > > > unawareness. > > > > > > > > > > Cheer up! He feels the "good life" consists of love and > > > > > > > > > > work- and > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > agree. > > > > > > > > > > > Among works of Freud offered in one of my courses are "The > > > > > > > > > > Future > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > an Illusion" (religion and tradition) and "Civilization and > > > > > > > > > > Its > > > > > > > > > > Discontents" (individual vs. society). Perhaps others would > > > > > > > > > > like > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > discuss these books- very slim books but "meaty". > > > > > > > > > > > Or we could delve into some Eric Hoffer?Or get carried away > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > Lenin's "State and Revolution"?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text -
