I think we are always stuck in an irrational situation, generally the makings of others. Science makes some kind of clearing for rationality and inventiveness. Heidegger opined on clearings as being amongst the real things of the world rather than facing them in thought 'where the backs were missing, but that didn't help him see the Nazis for what they were. One can probably "curl up" by taking action - as a cop in a pub brawl or whatever our countries ask of us as soldiers, our societies of mothers and so on. I've found myself coping in action fully aware of its ludicrous nature and wondering if there is any freedom from it other than that given by adrenaline and the steel put in in training to do the noxious. There's a strange rationale that we somehow have to do what's right in what is already an irrational mess and act as though rational against some bigger picture that we are the good guys - a view unseated everywhere by realistic history. The question for me is whether we can do much with our knowledge in a world in which few will give up on the comfort of knowing very little.
On Feb 1, 11:50 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > Also- I think if we really knew the consequences of our acts and > choices we might just curl up into a ball and do nothing. One friend > and I chuckle that we're all pretty much on an assembly line... > > On Feb 1, 5:27 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just to clarify my thought- that luck and timing can be good, bad or > > indifferent. Also rather than active thinking being a debate, it is > > more like selection. Literature and social sciences deal with layered > > communication- for instance, withholding facts, feelings or motives. > > It is often called discretion. :-) How do you mean "identity"? > > > On Jan 31, 11:09 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > The 'making sense of things later' seems true even in the split second > > > in brain research. I regard all strategy as retrospectively devised! > > > There's a book just out by Hill and Myatt (economists) on just how > > > facile economics teaching is in universities - but this contains > > > nothing on how this has happened. Some of this seems to me connected > > > with a lack of movement beyond identity Molly. > > > > On Jan 31, 1:30 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Part of human nature is to identify with people, thoughts, ideas > > > > around us. Being able to witness your identification, and moving > > > > beyond it is the real treasure. > > > > > On Jan 29, 9:10 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Molly your question has my mind running around its dust bins. Most my > > > > > thoughts are not original but more composites of other ideas. They > > > > > are like > > > > > hand me downs,, like the 3D image comes from watching how people > > > > > search > > > > > for treasure on sunken vessels, it is rags from a different ?idea?. > > > > > > My world is a world of rags in the form of other ideas. > > > > > Allan > > > > > On Jan 29, 2012 8:21 PM, "Allan H" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > Yeah it is kind of like an old dog sappen on his favorite bone. > > > > > > > it is trying to understand others, and what I have experienced As > > > > > > I have > > > > > > very few friends that like discussing God I talk to myself a > > > > > > lot..which is > > > > > > no problem as I am never really alone,. > > > > > > Allan > > > > > > > On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> Not at all irrelevant. did you have more thoughts about this? > > > > > > >> On Jan 28, 10:19 am, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> > Hi Mol&Rigs, listening to you two I've been asking myself why > > > > > >> > none of > > > > > >> > you mentions Jung and his description of the collective > > > > > >> > unconscious. I > > > > > >> > haven't read the Red Book yet, but maybe of of you has and could > > > > > >> > tell > > > > > >> > me why this is irrelevant to what you are discussing. > > > > > > >> > On Jan 27, 2:35 pm, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > The paramount paradox. > > > > > > >> > > On Jan 27, 8:21 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > Yes- I've read a lot of Campbell and admire his efforts. In > > > > > >> > > > fact, I > > > > > >> > > > was going to put the Oriental Mythology of his Masks of God > > > > > >> > > > series > > > > > >> > > > aside to reread- Indian, Chinese and Japanese chapters. I > > > > > >> > > > wish I > > > > > >> could > > > > > >> > > > keep certain studies on top of my thinking but maybe I have > > > > > >> > > > read so > > > > > >> > > > much there is a chute to forgetfulness or a pit of scrambled > > > > > >> > > > ideas! :-) Oh, dear! > > > > > > >> > > > However, back to your comment about looking back/within. I > > > > > >> > > > consider > > > > > >> > > > there is impossible split between the spiritual and material > > > > > >> > > > and yet > > > > > >> > > > that is our struggle to bridge- if possible. > > > > > > >> > > > On Jan 27, 6:32 am, Molly <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > Do myths disappear? Joseph Campbell mapped common human > > > > > >> > > > > myth > > > > > >> around > > > > > >> > > > > the word and through time to discover a mechanism > > > > > >> > > > > something close > > > > > >> to > > > > > >> > > > > common memory - the expression of the same archetypes in > > > > > >> > > > > real > > > > > >> time, > > > > > >> > > > > isolated incidents around the globe and at the same time. > > > > > >> > > > > This > > > > > >> > > > > phenomena has occurred throughout human history. This may > > > > > >> > > > > tell us > > > > > >> > > > > that it is not the looking back that is important, but as > > > > > >> > > > > Vam > > > > > >> says, > > > > > >> > > > > looking within. > > > > > > >> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:54 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > What is original? I might argue that one is simply > > > > > >> > > > > > explicating > > > > > >> what > > > > > >> > > > > > already exists. > > > > > > >> > > > > > Each generation assumes it has a distinct character- or > > > > > >> > > > > > needs > > > > > >> to prove > > > > > >> > > > > > that it has. > > > > > > >> > > > > > Was thinking the reason myths disappear is because they > > > > > >> > > > > > were > > > > > >> oral and > > > > > >> > > > > > native languages are usually suppressed by the > > > > > >> > > > > > conquerors. One > > > > > >> also > > > > > >> > > > > > carries family myths- which interfere with deep > > > > > >> > > > > > communication. > > > > > > >> > > > > > Yes- there are terrible inequities- all the more > > > > > >> > > > > > scandalous > > > > > >> because > > > > > >> > > > > > there really is plenty to go around so the root is greed > > > > > >> > > > > > and > > > > > >> distain > > > > > >> > > > > > for others. Governments only pretend to care for all its > > > > > >> citizens- it > > > > > >> > > > > > picks and chooses. > > > > > > >> > > > > > We passed the Gilded Age- I would call this the Tinsel > > > > > >> > > > > > Age. > > > > > > >> > > > > > On Jan 25, 9:45 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > I would say, Vam, that you often jump in the water > > > > > >> > > > > > > with an > > > > > >> 'entourage' > > > > > >> > > > > > > of assumptive baggage. I probably dislike citation > > > > > >> > > > > > > more than > > > > > >> you and > > > > > >> > > > > > > am not the first. Veblen would be a good start (to > > > > > >> > > > > > > use some > > > > > >> rough > > > > > >> > > > > > > citation). These days, you can at least Google the > > > > > >> > > > > > > name. > > > > > >> When I > > > > > >> > > > > > > started it meant a trip to the library. Anyone who > > > > > >> > > > > > > has the > > > > > >> chance to > > > > > >> > > > > > > read a lot of what's available (this is still > > > > > >> > > > > > > remarkably few) > > > > > >> should > > > > > >> > > > > > > discover most of what they thought their own ideas > > > > > >> > > > > > > have been > > > > > >> done > > > > > >> > > > > > > before. The idea is no doubt to try to 'stand on the > > > > > >> shoulders of > > > > > >> > > > > > > giants' (itself a wisecrack by Newton on Hooke's > > > > > >> > > > > > > dwarfish > > > > > >> stature). > > > > > >> > > > > > > The 'giants' always turn out flawed. Moses is a war > > > > > >> > > > > > > criminal > > > > > >> in > > > > > >> > > > > > > Numbers 31, the Greeks, for all their argument, never > > > > > >> produced a > > > > > >> > > > > > > decent one against slavery (the lunatic-religious John > > > > > >> > > > > > > Brown > > > > > >> being > > > > > >> > > > > > > better). Many, because they don't read enough, > > > > > >> > > > > > > attribute > > > > > >> 'relativity' > > > > > >> > > > > > > to Einstein, but it has a longer and wider history. > > > > > >> > > > > > > The > > > > > >> chattering > > > > > >> > > > > > > class reinvents the square wheel all over the place. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > What if the best of our system is fascist and we have > > > > > >> > > > > > > grown > > > > > >> in such > > > > > >> > > > > > > culture, or a caste system? By what processes do we > > > > > >> > > > > > > get an > > > > > >> > > > > > > understanding for change from such? Western > > > > > >> > > > > > > propaganda would > > > > > >> have us > > > > > >> > > > > > > believe pouring resources into the gullets of the rich > > > > > >> > > > > > > is > > > > > >> sensible. > > > > > >> > > > > > > We all live in the gutter. Only some of us lift our > > > > > >> > > > > > > eyes to > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > > > > > stars. If only I was smart enough to have been first > > > > > >> > > > > > > to > > > > > >> that! (Oscar > > > > > >> > > > > > > Wilde) A common jibe by academics is that common > > > > > >> > > > > > > sense is > > > > > >> that which > > > > > >> > > > > > > allows us to believe the world is flat - yet > > > > > >> > > > > > > flat-earth was an > > > > > >> > > > > > > academic construction - one can actually see the > > > > > >> > > > > > > curvature of > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > > > > > Earth. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > What we need is reliable collective memory. Given our > > > > > >> capacity to > > > > > >> > > > > > > pervert, citation is usually used in a highly selective > > > > > >> manner, > > > > > >> > > > > > > usually along with a core academic (religious etc.) > > > > > >> > > > > > > narrative > > > > > >> of > > > > > >> > > > > > > exclusion of competing argument. Control of what is > > > > > >> > > > > > > reliable > > > > > >> memory > > > > > >> > > > > > > is, of course, just what those in power want to > > > > > >> > > > > > > maintain - > > > > > >> perhaps > > > > > >> > > > > > > through principles of Home and Vanity. I will always > > > > > >> > > > > > > prefer > > > > > >> the > > > > > >> > > > > > > margins to this, remembering that to oppose tyranny can > > > > > >> pervert into > > > > > >> > > > > > > its support. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > Deconstruction is only a beginning. I believe its > > > > > >> > > > > > > spirit > > > > > >> concerns a > > > > > >> > > > > > > defeat of madness that includes rationalist fantasy > > > > > >> > > > > > > and animal > > > > > >> > > > > > > consensus (which I sense as grasping, selfish > > > > > >> > > > > > > individualism > > > > > >> easy to > > > > > >> > > > > > > rule). > > > > > > >> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 3:26 am, Vam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > "Is this not an important part of the dynamic > > > > > >> multidimensional mind > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Vam, can you find nothing of value with meeting this > > > > > >> > > > > > > > view > > > > > >> at least as > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a challenge?" > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > James, starting with God is a bad idea. Perhaps, > > > > > >> > > > > > > > ending up > > > > > >> at it is > > > > > >> > > > > > > > what needs to happen. Dawkins was in Jaipur here and > > > > > >> > > > > > > > I > > > > > >> found his view > > > > > >> > > > > > > > a lot more balanced, less bigoted and militant. > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > And Neil is right : it must deal with morality. > > > > > >> > > > > > > > Where his > > > > > >> discourse > > > > > >> > > > > > > > runs dry is when he is quoting other people ! That > > > > > >> > > > > > > > is also > > > > > >> my > > ... > > read more »
