[SA] That seems to be a current trend. Rehabilitate people back into 'normal' society. But we've all probably heard before, "What is normal?"
[Arlo] "Normal" is, of course, operationally defined (mostly) as operating within established social parameters. In this context, it usually means "adherence to the local, state and federal laws as mandated by elected governance". We expect some dissent, of course, which is both healthy and vital. But "murdering" can never be tolerated, it must be dealt with as a dangerous pattern to be contained. The issue, surely, is that no social pattern can ever completely eliminate criminal activity. Even the most hardened of social regimes, where petty shoplifting is dealt with by the removal of limbs, still has occurrences of crime. But my point was not that "rehabilitation" should be the only avenue considered in handling crime. That's just more of the weird dichotomies laid forth by party ideologues. No, I think that rehabilitation has to be PART of a COMPREHENSIVE approach regarding certain criminal activity. The cost of incarceration is phenomenal, and if those who have committed past crimes can be brought back to be productive members of society, we all win. I also think that some criminals, such as pedophiles and rapists, we may have to face the fact that rehabilitation may rarely work. At that point we need to consider other options to incarceration. Society seems ill-ready to accept such things as mandatory castration for these types of crimes, so it may have to accept that we foot the bill for lifelong incarceration. But this is a complex issue to sort out. Which is why I find posting that one Pirsig quote over-and-over really does nothing to solve anything. Yes, we need more police in many high-crime areas. Yes, we need to give police the authority and power to deal with the war they are fighting. But saying that this is the beginning and end to solving the problem is ridiculous. And this brings us to the next point. [Arlo previously] What is it that these other countries are doing, that we are not, that is keeping this level of "biological violence" in check? Are these "socialized" regions guided by a better intellectual pattern than America? [SA] All good questions. Also, Japan, a very strong economic society over the last 50 years. Japan's crime rate is very, very low. But I have difficulty putting together everybody gets $50 and that solves all the problems. That's a bit too surface of a solution. Something else must be going on. [Arlo] There is the option that the crime the US deals with is an unfortunate consequence of the "freedom" we enjoy. If we have the "best", we also have to have the "worst". In which case the high-crime, dangerous gangs and levels of violence is something we can "fight" but can never truly defeat. We have to resign ourselves to living with it in order to also live with the beneficial freedoms we enjoy. This satiates the patriotic "We da best!" need for many, but it leaves the possibility for change out. Platt can post that Pirsig quotation thousands of times, but the only possibility for altering the crime rate is to squelch the freedoms of the citizenry. This is, perhaps, one way of looking at the gun control laws many nations have enacted. Of course, that's simplistic, but the bottom line is this. If the crime we face is a consequence of the freedoms we enjoy, then we have to just shut up and live with it. But money is on what you say, "something else must be going on". [SA] Could it be the impression that government cares? These governments attempt to help their citizens get their basic needs and medical care. Could it be in the attempt, just having that loud voice declared throughout the country that we care and will try to help, and then 'things' visibly happen that people find this caring and visible follow through on this attempt to care - soothing and helpful. It is this support attempt. Is that all we need, a big part of what we need, a small part of what we need, or not what we need? [Arlo] A bit of tangent in this discussion, but as I've said, the Raygun-ere "government is the problem" one-liner is likely the single, most deceitful and outrageously dishonest propaganda tactics in modern American history. Certainly we have a nation thunderbeat with this slogan so many times we have come to loathe politicians and consider the government to be our enemy. While there is much in the bureaucracy to loathe, I'd agree, the notion that governance itself is at fault is idiotic. "Government" has brought us a common currency, public lands, freely traversible roads and waterways, libraries, museums, border protection, police, military, fire, emt, public transit, resource management, environmental and labor protections, and other strong supportive social structures. "Abuse of governance" is something we should always remain vigilant against, as we should with abuses of power of any sort. Anyway, let's wait to see what Platt has to say about "what's going on" in these other countries that affords them such a comparably lower rate of violence, crime and gang activity. Do they employ more police? Do they "humiliate" their kids in school? Do they demand more discipline in the homes? I'm curious? As part of an answer. I think Michael Moore's brilliant "Bowling for Columbine" answers to the root of this question. Its not a total answer, of course, as it is a complex issue, but I think its a great place to start. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
