> Your endorsement of "recreational sex" is exactly what's wrong with our > society. You seem to think that promiscuity is fine so long as it is > "hygienic" and does not lead to impregnation or disease.
DM: Yes, it is fun, enhances life, can build relationships, etc You even suggest > that it's a practical way to test a relationship for marriage. DM: As usual your jumps to implications that were not in my mind never cease to amaze. Are you > aware of what rampant sexuality has done to our culture? First of all, > the > value of intimacy has been sacrificed to the irresponsible "have fun now" > value system of today's youth. Out of wedlock pregnancy is no longer > shamed > by society, so we produce more bastards each year that have to be raised > by > orphanages at the taxpayers' expense, not to mention the criminal > propensity > of fatherless children. And if you think premarital sex improves the > prospects for a good marriage, you need to check the statistics. DM: Shame you don't read what I actually write. > >> So I'd say that as moderns we have more opportunity for >> pleasure without the same costs that are ancestors faced so >> we can shrug off some of their fears and customs. > > You've just defined the "fun = value" credo of the new generation. DM: I embrace fun but I also embrace higher values than fun. You seem to think that fun is an obstacle to higher values. That's just not true and rather silly. I'd suggest we could agree if you saw the problem as being about supporting higher values and not banishing fun! Take > every opportunity for pleasure, and to hell with traditional values. DM: How clearly I opposed this and you are too ideological to discuss the alternative I offered. I > sometimes wonder why people bother to marry at all, since it obviously > narrows their opportunity for fun. DM: Had lots of fun and been married for 20 years myself. I can't tell you how many failed > marriages I've seen among people who had a "live-in" relationship before > deciding to make it "official." Don't you see that our younger generation > no longer understands the value of romantic courtship, let alone marriage > for life. The availability of birth control and abortion clinics is no > reason to abandon our cultural morality. Since we've reduced love between > two persons to a mechanical act performed for pleasure wherever possible, > like apes in the jungle, how can we expect our children to grow up as > responsible parents? DM:Sure there are problems but the causes are more complex than you are facing. > >> Surely one day we will be bored with our most basic >> activities and give more attention to our more developed ones. > > I think far too many are already bored with marriage and have no time to > develop the family structure > that is essential to civilization. We've trashed traditional values > because > having fun has taken precedence over living responsibly. We like to think > we've "liberated" ourselves from conventional morality. What we're really > done is taken civilization a big step backward. Where is the value in > that? > The "joy of the moment"? DM: If you are right than our civilisation will fall like many others and some others civilisation will have to replace it. That is not such a disaster as you may think. There is a danger of it but it is no certainty. I think we can pull our socks up. > >> I think eventually the media will bore of this pushing back the >> boundaries of taste. > > Again, you blame our lack of value judgment on the media, business > competition, and right wing politics. > It is the individual who brings value into the world, and it is > individuals > who advance or regress social morality by their value choices. DM: And individuals adopt or reject the society they are born into, I thought it was you who had concerns about our present culture. > > [HP previously]: >> Blaming the competitive market on the right is a frivolous argument. > > [DM]: >> That is a very convenient answer and you should be ashamed. Companies >> must maximise their profits, fools must be parted from their money, >> and massive advertising spend seems to work very nicely. Surely you >> are wise enough to see the problem here. > > That fools will be parted from their money is the fools' problem, not a > problem of free enterprise. > You accuse me of a "convenient answer" to your copout. Foolish, > ignorant, > or irresponsible people do not deserve the rewards of a free society. DM: So you are for them to make bad decisions and go down the pan! SO you are a cheer leader for hedonism? Would > you would change the capitalistic system to reflect the profligacy of its > people? Socialism is a system that brings standards down to the lowest > common denominator. Is that your solution to a materialistic society that > no longer values individual initiative, belief in a transcendent reality, > or > the pursuit of excellence that our ancestors dreamed of? How far we have > fallen! DM: Guess what: No! > >> I can assure you that business spends alot of time creating 'needs' >> we did not know we had. How do you think gadgets get sold? >> -you see the problems and try to cover over what is clearly one of >> the causes. Drop the ideology please! > > Most of my working life was spent in industrial advertising and marketing, > so I don't need a lecture on how new products are marketed. Industrial > purchasers are well aware of the caveat "buyer beware", and so are > intelligent consumers. DM: Guess what, they are not all intelligent, they are encouraged to allow themselves to be exploited. Are you OK with that? The FDA, EPA, FHA, and a host of other government > agencies serve to protect those who aren't. DM: Yeah they're really effective! Frankly, I believe we're > coddling the consumers already, with state bans on saturated fats and laws > against smoking. Soon we'll have government telling them what to eat, how > to dress, where to live, what to do for recreation, and whom to marry. > Are > we all retards? DM: So you like things the way they are and applaud hedonism and consumerism, what on Earth are you proposing? > > I'll gladly drop the ideology, if you will stop making excuses for > irresponsible behavior. > DM: If we can't understand what leadsto bad behaviour how are we going to challenge it. Have you got any suggestions that might work? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
