Hi Peter, (and Ron & Gav et al) You are agreeing we can attribute ants (and bees and meerkat's, and many things) with "intelligence" (ie you agree they DO manipulate semantically significant symbols.)
The question is whether that intelligence is the same as "intellect" - the intellect that gives name to the 4th level. For example - Do they in any sense rationalize this manipulation, the meanings, the symbology - or still, are they capable of questioning it ? I believe, like you it seems, that "self-consciousness" is an important attribute of intellect .... the ability to question the consequences of "what if" in the world beyond your immediate experience, yet still from the individual perspective. So back to the MoQ (We have to be careful not to re-introduce the individual vs collective confusion into theis social / intellectual question.) ... For me ... to summarise ... I'm suggesting the "self-conscious questioning" is what distinguishes intellectual from social level behaviour. (Clearly intelligence per se is NOT the distinguishing feature.) Ian On 11/12/07, Peter Corteen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ian and all, > > I'm confused by this distinction between intellect and intelligence - and I > can't go back and read all of this thread in the hope of finding a clue. > > In man, I regard the self-consciousness as a projection of the brain and not > a thing or spirit, in itself; Putting the word 'I' to it is where the symbol > comes in but the thought, the sensation of self comes before the word. > > If we agree that the individual ant can do intelligent things independently > of the colony then why can't be attribute them with intelligence? Who is to > say that they don't have some rudimentary ability to manipulate symbols? As > far as I know, we can't even pinpoint where symbols exist in our own brains, > even though we obviously use them. > > Sorry if this is too simplistic at this stage of this thread. > > -Peter > > On 12/11/2007, ian glendinning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Ron, Krim, Gav ... > > > > Two threads here ... the excellent epiricism / radical / pure / SOMist > > / pragmatist debate ... making great strides DMB, Matt, DM .... keep > > it up. > > > > But another voice lost ... Gav pointed out again the distinction > > between intelligence and intellect. For me, to resolve this, is a big > > part of the social / intellectual confusion. > > > > The Meerkats (and Bees and Ant-colonies) are great examples. We see > > them do intelligent things individually and socially, but does anyone > > of us believe they use any kind of intellectual reasoning to do them ? > > As Ron says, they do communicate, they do manipulate symbols > > semantically, but yet they still do not use "intellect". Are we any > > closer to the social / intellectual distinction ? > > > > Personally, I believe intellect is simply (at any point in time) the > > highest level of reasoning so far evolved, by which other forms of > > reasoning can be questioned (and judged inferior). For a long time > > SOMism (rightly or wrongly) held that role, even though other more > > enligtened forms of reasoning existed. The judgement of which form of > > intellect holds sway is essentially .. well ... social. Hence the > > problem. > > > > Acceptance ... of "imposition" of habit, by convention > > vs > > Questioning of ... anything and everything ... inlcuding habits of mind. > > = A sliding grey-scale from social to intellectual > > > > Ian > > > > On 11/10/07, Krimel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > [Ron then] > > > Dogs, Primates, the meercats in "meercat manor" all exhibit > > communication > > > And reasonably complex social structure. Which implies a certain degree > > > Of symbol manipulation and subjective agreement. We humans exhibit the > > > Most complex forms but I'd hesitate to say we are the only species > > > That displays intellect. However crude. > > > > > > [Krimel now] > > > Ants "communicate" with chemical signals. Bees do the "waggle dance" and > > > putty nose monkeys have different alarm cries for leopards than eagles. > > They > > > even combine the two cries syntactically to signal time to move to a new > > > territory to forage. I would be as reluctant to call this "intellect" as > > I > > > would be to say that the Greeks invented "intellect" > > > > > > [ron then] > > > When intellect has yet to be defined sufficiently yes, it does create a > > > Lot Of confusion about what is meant by pre-intellect. The important > > part I > > > Feel Needs clarification is which way are we focusing to achieve a > > quality > > > awareness? Some impressions imply that it is to be found in > > > pre-intellect And replacing SOM with MOQ. We have demonstrated that SOM > > is > > > cultural As well as intellectual and is a huge contributing factor in > > how we > > > Perceive reality. > > > > > > [Krimel now] > > > I don't think we need to focus on intellect to find Quality awareness. > > This > > > Quality awareness is rooted in biology and modified through experience > > but > > > it does not require intellect to be expressed or for that matter to be > > > suppressed. In other words Quality awareness is not something that needs > > to > > > be achieved. It just is. > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > > Archives: > > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
