Hi Ron There is certainly something individualistic about the mix that gives us the need to be intellectual, to consider experience, to argue amougst ourselves, to express conscience, something protestant mixed in, notions of rights, property and trade and markets, freedom to be yourself and act independently of family, religion, tribe, romantic notions of artists, and it all seems to be about creating further complexity and difference within a society, hence individuals. I think intellect and individuals emerge together, is not Socrates a thinker and a unique individual? Both at once, and emerging in a trading society also giving us ideas about democracy.
I think 4th level as intellectual is useful but not the full story. David M ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Kulp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism >I think this fits, surely some will disagree but let me put it out > there: > > Intellectual is the VALUE of the individual to the social/cultural. > The reason why intellectual is so wily to pin down is because > It introduces the value of the individual to their culture. > In the levels we transform from collective generalizations to > The relationship of specific Individual experience to the whole. > The value being based on the contributing factor. > Based on this, MOQ becomes a high value contribution to the social > Level and it is this which defines it's intellectual pattern. > > Its intellectual pattern stresses this point. And might make it > The highest value of intellectual patterns. > > Thoughts? > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Kulp > Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2007 10:17 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] subject/object: pragmatism > > > And Ron, bringing in Peter's point (from Bo) ... > > ... is that the S/O distinction is itself a distinction of intellect > over social. What I have inlcuded as "self-aware reasoning" would be > seen as more intellectual than just intelligent .... Some intelligent > things communicate symbolically, linguistically, without any signs of > self-conscious reflective reasoning. > > I should work that into my summary. > > > Ian, > Good points, I was meaning more along the lines of not individual v.s. > The collective so much as what the individual experience brings to > The social/cultural table. Intellectual would be what the > Individual contributes to the society/culture. > > And like you said "freedom of expression" plays an important role > In relation to cultural/social acceptance of individual expression > Which in turn becomes a factor in the evolution of said social/culture. > Pirsigs latching metaphor comes to mind. > > -Ron > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
