Ian,
I like the use of "continuum" you refer to below.
I think what also is happening is that 'distinction'
might be thought of as a 'divide', 'a complete cut',
or a 'separation point' between levels or patterns,
and I view this as incorrect. Distinction is not a
separation between patterns and/or levels.
Distinction is trying to put certain patterns on one
level or category versus another, but as we get closer
to where the 'dividing line is' between any levels
and/or patterns we may notice we can't rip the fabric
of reality into pieces. Therefore as we move further
away from what we can experience on any one of the
levels where the 'meat' or 'heart' of the static
patterns exist and patterns are most organized and
enduring, and thus, we move closer to where, for
instance, the static pattern is no longer
intellectual, but is now social, that line of
distinction is going to become more chaotic, free,
dynamic, etc... For at these 'lines of distinction'
is where the creativity is taking place. Ah... and
the code of art emerges.
SA
> this is the recurring debate ... however general
> agreement is that the
> distinction between social and intellectual is NOT
> individual vs
> collective ...
>
> Myself (and Matt) have given suggestions on the
> distinction ...
>
> Social and intellectual levels are part of a
> cultural continuum.
> Intelligence and language (symbolic, semantic,
> communication and
> metaphor) apply across the whole spectrum.
> What passes for intellectual is decided socially.
> Across that continuum, at the social end, things are
> accepted
> (relatively unquestioning) on the basis of
> convention and/or
> authority, myth etc, at the intellectual end things
> are relatively
> open to questioning and reasoning .... but its the
> cultural continuum
> as a whole that decides what kind of questioning and
> reasoning is
> "intellectual" and what is "old-hat".
> Intellectual is a kind of "snobbery" looking down
> the nose from the
> pinnacle of most-enlightened reasoning. But that
> perspective is of
> course subjective, and open to cultural debate (and
> evolution) .... as
> this forum proves.
>
> My only reason to continue this particular debate
> any further is to
> bottom out the discussion with Bo as to where MoQ
> fits in with Level 4
> itself, or whether Bo is right that we should just
> treat level 4 as a
> "static" representation of GOF-Intellect -
> Traditional Empirical
> Logical Subject-Object reasoning .... and anything
> better than that,
> like the MoQ itself is outside the levels ....
> something more
> metaphysical.
>
> I don't buy that (yet). I'm a pragmatist. For me MoQ
> is just a (very
> good) meme competing for acceptance in the
> socio-cultural-intellectual
> Level 3/4. Part of the evolution of Level 3/4.
>
> Ian
>
> On 11/14/07, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Ian:
> > Agreed. But the point is it's a creative tool on
> the social level too
> > ... so in itself .... language, symbol
> manipulation, communication ...
> > does not help distinguish what is intellectual.
> >
> > Ron:
> > Perhaps intellectual is the individual
> manifestation of culture
> > Or culture of the individual.
> >
> > Ian
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