SA,Pete, >From my own experience, bums have their own society, they commonly Know other bums in the area along with various social workers who Make it their job to go around and help as many as possible. on average most bums suffer from mental illness and/or Substance abuse. Most do not resort to crime but live off Societies waste. My own experience was of depression and substance abuse. Which perpetuates each other.
No Pete, bums don't know shit, because culture is the shit of which you Speak. Now if MoQ suggests transcending culture, then perhaps as SA suggests, They might know a bit about this experience simply because they do Live on the fringe. But, separated from culture, what makes your experience any more important viable or more meaningful than a bums? Outside of our own culture do Any of us know shit? -Ron -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Heather Perella Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2007 10:15 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MD] Knowledge as MOQ's intellect > SA previously said: > The way I see this, S/O distinctions involves > ever-higher learning ivory tower approaches. The > bums know it already. Yes, they may not speak moqish, > and arrive at the same worded conclusions that Pirsig > did, but when one drops-out, one is going into an > experience of dynamic quality where mountains are no > longer mountains; rivers are no longer rivers. > That's what I mean by this. > Pete replies: > You must be talking about dharma bums. [SA currently] No, I wasn't talking about the dharma bums. I never read Kerouac (spelling?), and I don't think I read any others. [Peter] > Drop outs, beatniks, world weary lazy > bastards; I'm half way there myself but haven't got > the stomach for the full > journey. [SA currently] I don't know. [Pete] > I like the idea of the wild life, talking > to bears and things, > going up on the mountain for the rest of my life, > for the rest of my wild > life, along with my wife. But from a different point > of view it's escapist > and cowardly. I'm not including you SA; I know you > like the bears and the > trees but you're still involved in the modern world > too. [SA currently] I know I'm involved in the modern world. If you read a post of mine a few weeks ago titled 'the power of everyday living' you would have noticed I mentioned the computer is my friend. It's obvious I use a computer, but I'm comfortable with it and find it as a friend (I've accepted it that much). I accepted gas powered cars and jeeps years and years ago. I'm not disturbed that I use these 'things'. As to moving into the forest and that being cowardly... I haven't been able to leave yet, but I would love to. Would I be cut off from the rest of society? Probably not, so, I guess I would still be accepting certain aspects of this modern world. So, if acceptance identifies me as brave - then I would be a mighty warrior indeed! [Pete] > I see all varieties of drop-outs, drug addicts, musos and general > bums in Camden Town; hell, I > very nearly was one, might one day still be one. > Your archetypal bum, > though, don't know his arse from his elbow. [SA currently] How do you know? I'm talking about Kurt Cobain (he lived under a bridge). I was thinking about him when I wrote this down. I was also thinking about the residents where I work that run away from their homes, and honestly I was thinking about my past where I was kicked out of my house by my parents and I lived in the woods for a little bit and ended up living with friends of mine from the university in another county that I walked to. I also left my parents house from time to time, fed up with society and would camp out in the woods, stare at all the dependent items I still had with me that was made by the rest of society, including the food. I stripped naked and sat in the woods by a fire with no societal items nearby (I left them hidden on another hill), but still I came back. I wrote this in a journal of mine December 21, 2000 as follows: On the Baker Trail I realized society needed me. On the Trail in Minnesota I realized I needed society. Peace (Written 12-21-00) So, I'm not quite sure what your getting at Pete. [Pete] > Sure he knows the difference > between subjects and objects, like he knows when > he's been kicked in the > head; try telling him it's really just a pattern of > value and he'll try and > kick you back. [SA currently] I don't know why 'being kicked in the head' isn't a value pattern? It is an act between subjects and objects, and this would be a low quality experience for the bum being kicked in the head I would think. It would hurt. I would feel the pain before anything I believe. I'm not arguing over subjects and objects being the message. I'm referring to Bo's interpretation that leaves value out of the intellect. Isn't that immoral according to the moq? To believe no values and morals exist on any level? [Pete] > SA If you think the bums know it > already then what are you > waiting for? You want enlightenment? then forget > your borrowed morals, > forget your wife and kid, get up on the mountain and > share your spirit with > the cosmos man. We'll all be the better for it! [SA currently] Who said the bums are enlightened? All's I mentioned is that they would not see the mountains as mountains anymore. That's dynamic. What I'm referring to here is an intuitive understanding that is being experienced. Some uncalculated number of bums would be able to describe the experience of how it feels and what they see day to day living out on the streets while people with food on their plate drive by everyday not even noticing those bums except if they smelled 'em they might comment on their smell. What do the bums know? Have you asked them? I was one for a little bit. I talk to people at work that ran away from home and lived in the streets for a while. It's definitely a different perspective from the fringe of society. [Pete] > Those bums don't know shit man. [SA currently] Yeah, how many people like them it would seem few try to help them, and Peter, like others, kick 'em while their down already. Pete I'm saddened by this comment of yours. don't hurt the heart, SA ________________________________________________________________________ ____________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
