SA, you were the one who said that the 'bum knows it already' and I was disagreeing with you. What did you mean when you said the bum knows it already? That bums have an intuitive knowledge of reality but don't have the education to be able to put it into words? I think some bums become very street wise but that's generally as far as it goes. Maybe there are some exceptional bums like Kurt Cobain (who's name I vaguely recognise) and Jack Kerouac but in the main they are unexceptional people; and however unfair and unchristian it sounds to you they generally get where they are because they have mismanaged there lives. Sure a lot of them have a very bad start which sets the trend for the rest of their lives and some have a very unlucky break which ruins them.
Yes, I was heavy handed and over the top in what I said but I still think that bums are less able to deal with the world than say people in work and that they don't 'know' it already. -Peter On 16/12/2007, Heather Perella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > SA previously said: > > The way I see this, S/O distinctions involves > > ever-higher learning ivory tower approaches. The > > bums know it already. Yes, they may not speak > moqish, > > and arrive at the same worded conclusions that > Pirsig > > did, but when one drops-out, one is going into an > > experience of dynamic quality where mountains are no > > longer mountains; rivers are no longer rivers. > > That's what I mean by this. > > > > Pete replies: > > You must be talking about dharma bums. > > > [SA currently] > No, I wasn't talking about the dharma bums. I > never read Kerouac (spelling?), and I don't think I > read any others. > > > > [Peter] > > Drop outs, beatniks, world weary lazy > > bastards; I'm half way there myself but haven't got > > the stomach for the full > > journey. > > > [SA currently] > I don't know. > > > [Pete] > > I like the idea of the wild life, talking > > to bears and things, > > going up on the mountain for the rest of my life, > > for the rest of my wild > > life, along with my wife. But from a different point > > of view it's escapist > > and cowardly. I'm not including you SA; I know you > > like the bears and the > > trees but you're still involved in the modern world > > too. > > > [SA currently] > I know I'm involved in the modern world. If you > read a post of mine a few weeks ago titled 'the power > of everyday living' you would have noticed I mentioned > the computer is my friend. It's obvious I use a > computer, but I'm comfortable with it and find it as a > friend (I've accepted it that much). I accepted gas > powered cars and jeeps years and years ago. I'm not > disturbed that I use these 'things'. > As to moving into the forest and that being > cowardly... I haven't been able to leave yet, but I > would love to. Would I be cut off from the rest of > society? Probably not, so, I guess I would still be > accepting certain aspects of this modern world. So, > if acceptance identifies me as brave - then I would be > a mighty warrior indeed! > > > [Pete] > > I see all varieties of drop-outs, drug addicts, > musos and general > > bums in Camden Town; hell, I > > very nearly was one, might one day still be one. > > Your archetypal bum, > > though, don't know his arse from his elbow. > > > [SA currently] > How do you know? I'm talking about Kurt Cobain > (he lived under a bridge). I was thinking about him > when I wrote this down. I was also thinking about the > residents where I work that run away from their homes, > and honestly I was thinking about my past where I was > kicked out of my house by my parents and I lived in > the woods for a little bit and ended up living with > friends of mine from the university in another county > that I walked to. I also left my parents house from > time to time, fed up with society and would camp out > in the woods, stare at all the dependent items I still > had with me that was made by the rest of society, > including the food. I stripped naked and sat in the > woods by a fire with no societal items nearby (I left > them hidden on another hill), but still I came back. > I wrote this in a journal of mine December 21, > 2000 as follows: > > On the Baker Trail I realized society needed me. > On the Trail in Minnesota I realized I needed > society. > Peace > (Written 12-21-00) > > > So, I'm not quite sure what your getting at Pete. > > > [Pete] > > Sure he knows the difference > > between subjects and objects, like he knows when > > he's been kicked in the > > head; try telling him it's really just a pattern of > > value and he'll try and > > kick you back. > > > [SA currently] > I don't know why 'being kicked in the head' isn't > a value pattern? It is an act between subjects and > objects, and this would be a low quality experience > for the bum being kicked in the head I would think. > It would hurt. I would feel the pain before anything > I believe. I'm not arguing over subjects and objects > being the message. I'm referring to Bo's > interpretation that leaves value out of the intellect. > Isn't that immoral according to the moq? To believe > no values and morals exist on any level? > > > [Pete] > > SA If you think the bums know it > > already then what are you > > waiting for? You want enlightenment? then forget > > your borrowed morals, > > forget your wife and kid, get up on the mountain and > > share your spirit with > > the cosmos man. We'll all be the better for it! > > > [SA currently] > Who said the bums are enlightened? All's I > mentioned is that they would not see the mountains as > mountains anymore. That's dynamic. What I'm > referring to here is an intuitive understanding that > is being experienced. Some uncalculated number of > bums would be able to describe the experience of how > it feels and what they see day to day living out on > the streets while people with food on their plate > drive by everyday not even noticing those bums except > if they smelled 'em they might comment on their smell. > What do the bums know? Have you asked them? I was > one for a little bit. I talk to people at work that > ran away from home and lived in the streets for a > while. It's definitely a different perspective from > the fringe of society. > > > [Pete] > > Those bums don't know shit man. > > > [SA currently] > Yeah, how many people like them it would seem few > try to help them, and Peter, like others, kick 'em > while their down already. Pete I'm saddened by this > comment of yours. > > > don't hurt the heart, > SA > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better friend, newshound, and > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. 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