[Bo] Of course, from SOM's premises the "all is subjective" (not just knowledge) sounds watertight and shockproof.
[Krimel] I would that it were not so but I await a path out... [Bo] On the other hand whether the "material world" REALLY is mind makes no difference, the two are bound to each other. [Krimel] Whether or not the 'material world' exists at all or how we should describe it are matters that we must negotiate together, intersubjectively. Kant said we could not really do this. Pirsig says as much and bolsters his view by adopting Taoism. It is a chicken and egg issue really with matter evolving into mind which perceives (that is: processes sensation into meaning) matter and its own reflections. [Bo] This goes for the other pole, the "mind just a fall-out of matter". Mind may just be mind, but never the less where everything is realized. The S/O screw has turned for 3 thousand years and churned out ever more complicated somish patterns. Its being a linguistic convenience is a most sophisticated one. [Krimel] Humans like other primates have an extraordinarily complex system of emotional communication that is universal not just with our own species but across a great many species. When we speak the "language" of emotion: fear, joy, hate, love we are understood. When we extend this capacity to include abstract symbols and to cover common shared experiences that are less biological in nature, that is when language appears. The very process of speaking is perhaps first cleavage of subject and object. [Bo] Here objectivity=reality: "What guarantees the reality of the world ... etc." which shows that Phaedrus of ZAMM started from SOM. But if we from the MOQ cast our view back to the pre-SOM (IMO pre-intellect age, people hardly had any problems if the world was objective and not a creation of their minds, this was not invented yet. Existence included a host of forces - gods, goddesses, half- and semi-half immortals - but even if invisible they were not subjective in a SOM sense. OK, no, further comments, the above is certainly SOM [Krimel] The 'world' is not so much object as 'other'. The terms we use to communicate shared understanding of this other in whatever form they have taken, convey the S/O split. Whatever terms are used; god and goddess or quarks and leptons are metaphors. History is the recorded search for more precise metaphors but the S/O split itself is lost in time. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
