Hello everyone
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 17:36:14 +0100 > Subject: Re: [MD] What is culture in the MOQ? > > Dan, Steve and moqtalk > > 4 Jan. Dan commented Steve's comment to Khoo's: > > Khoo: >>>> If I recall my Sociology 101, culture is defined as the sum total >>>> of knowledge that groups of humans share. > > Steve: >>> This is an SOM definition of culture since SOMists only know about >>> intellectual patterns but not social patterns. >Bo: > Hope this isn't irony (possibly directed my way) because it is just > right.. IMO Dan: Why would those dirty rotten SOM scoundrels know about intellectual patterns and not social patterns? Doesn't it take the MOQ to illuminate both those concepts? I know it did in my case. >Steve: >>> Handshakes are certainly part of culture but are not knowledge. >Bo: > Culture is just a wider social concept .. IMO. Dan: You're saying that culture doesn't include ideas? > > ---------------- > > Dan comments: > >> I think the MOQ defines culture as the collection of social and >> intellectual patterns of value of a given people. >Bo: > One can't have a collection of two upper levels without it being a > collection of all levels and all levels means intellect as top notch and > thus an "intellectual" -- um -- culture. A SOM culture that (as Steve > says) doesn't know anything about social patterns (nor that its own is > intellectual I may add) Only from MOQ's meta-level the Q-context is > seen. Dan: As you know, I don't subscribe to your theory that the MOQ is a "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's idea and as such is a collection of intellectual patterns of value. That aside, the MOQ clearly states that culture is a collection of social and intellectual static patterns of value of a given people. A SOM culture (in which we all live) might say that culture is formed by the collective agreement of individuals within a given group. I don't see much of a difference. It's more a matter of where one starts, I suppose. >Dan: >> Handshakes are social patterns until a person begins to study them. >> At that point, they become intellectual patterns of value. For >> instance... >Bo: > Intellect is treating social customs as subjective because they are > something that only exist in people's mind and varies from one social > group to another. Dan: Yes, though I would go so far as to say that the MOQ treats social customs as subjective (in the SOM sense) too. >Bo: > You ended your story about handshaking thus >>Dan: >> I am intellectually manipulating the socially symbolic handshake to >> gain a desired end. >Bo: > You want the "symbol manipulation" intellect to apply, but this is not > what Pirsig means, but the ability to pick up social signals, important > nevertheless, we are social beings too, but not the 4th level. Dan: Please provide a quote to support your statement. Perhaps that would clarify things for me here. > >> Thoughts? >Bo: > My thoughts were and are that LILA postulates an immune system at > each level, but (also) calls intellect's system "the cultural immune > system) > > "It was not something that he could talk about without > being slammed by the cultural immune system, being > thought crazy, and with his record it was not good to invite that > suspicion." > > He is correct about psychiatry being the 4th. level's immune > apparatus, but the "culture" concept muddles things. There are > cultures that don't have a notion of disturbed people as mentally ill, > they believe them possessed by evil spirits or by the devil ...etc. So my > conclusion is that these are social level cultures, only the West has > this "psychic" immune system and consequently is the only intellectual > level civilization. This proves for the umpteenth time that intellect is the > S/O distinction, in this context the mental/corporeal, psychic/somatic > variants. Dan: I take it from this that you see Western culture as a collection of intellectual patterns of value only. I think you are being forced into this misinterpretation of the MOQ as a consequence of your own "invisible wall of prejudice" (your SOL theory). Thank you, Dan Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
