Hi Bo, Dan, On 06/01/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dan and moqtalk. > > 5 Jan. you said: > > > You're saying that culture doesn't include ideas? > > Bo now: > IMO the culture term can't be used as an intellectual "master-pattern" > (nor can "ideas") there are bacteria cultures (that don't involve ideas) > and there were stone age cultures that certainly had a lot of ideas, but > were from before the intellectual level. > > Bo earlier: > > > One can't have a collection of two upper levels without it being a > > > collection of all levels and all levels means intellect as top notch > > > and thus an "intellectual" -- um -- culture. A SOM culture that (as > > > Steve says) doesn't know anything about social patterns (nor that > > > its own is intellectual I may add) Only from MOQ's meta-level the > > > Q-context is seen. > > > Dan: > > As you know, I don't subscribe to your theory that the MOQ is a > > "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's idea and as such is a > > collection of intellectual patterns of value
I think 'meta-level' is appropriate because openness to the dynamic is like seeing the whole context (the actual levels) by stepping beyond the limits of the 4th level, the limitations of SOM. Besides MoQ is metaphysics! Bo now: > I put IMOs (too many) all over my posts to forestall SA's cries of alarm, > and I know that you don't subscribe to my SOL About the MOQ being > Pirsig's idea I don't deny, but no copyright exist in philosophy. Pirsig > would have been superhuman not to overlook details in this immense > metaphysical de- and reconstruction so what's wrong with pointing out > snags - and repairing them - instead of insisting on stone tablets ... > and be the laughing stock of academy? > > > That aside, the MOQ clearly states that culture is a collection of > > social and intellectual static patterns of value of a given people. A > > SOM culture (in which we all live) might say that culture is formed by > > the collective agreement of individuals within a given group. I don't > > see much of a difference. It's more a matter of where one starts, I > > suppose. A culture is a collection of individuals with shared characteristics and behaving in similar ways; that covers microbes too. Culture looks to be a social pattern as it needs a group to work. But could not animal cultures, such as a tribe of chimpanzees or even slime moulds, be examples of how the social level first emerged out of the biological? It seems that although most social patterning that we could recognise would pertain to humans nevertheless other species also exhibit social patterns. The social pattern of language is possibly the largest determinant of a persons culture and this also confirms culture to be a social pattern. Right now I'm out of range of the MOQ material, but as I recall it > Pirsig's definition is the ability to manipulate the (other levels' > patterns > stored as) symbols in the brain OF THE MANIPULATOR, not to > manipulate other people, but we may return to this. Yes, like the intellectual activity of writing an essay would involve building up a coherent set of metaphors to describe some topic; culture say? Bo before: > > > > He is correct about psychiatry being the 4th. level's immune > > > apparatus, but the "culture" concept muddles things. There are > > > cultures that don't have a notion of disturbed people as mentally > > > ill, they believe them possessed by evil spirits or by the devil > > > ...etc. So my conclusion is that these are social level cultures, > > > only the West has this "psychic" immune system and consequently is > > > the only intellectual level civilization. This proves for the > > > umpteenth time that intellect is the S/O distinction, in this > > > context the mental/corporeal, psychic/somatic variants. What about Japan, Australia, New Zealand and many other sub-cultures throughout Asia and the other continents wherever a more secular foothold can take place and where technology develops? Thinking about it now it seems to me that culture could be a general term to describe the social level. -Peter Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
