Dan and moqtalk.
5 Jan. you said:
> You're saying that culture doesn't include ideas?
Bo now:
IMO the culture term can't be used as an intellectual "master-pattern"
(nor can "ideas") there are bacteria cultures (that don't involve ideas)
and there were stone age cultures that certainly had a lot of ideas, but
were from before the intellectual level.
Bo earlier:
> > One can't have a collection of two upper levels without it being a
> > collection of all levels and all levels means intellect as top notch
> > and thus an "intellectual" -- um -- culture. A SOM culture that (as
> > Steve says) doesn't know anything about social patterns (nor that
> > its own is intellectual I may add) Only from MOQ's meta-level the
> > Q-context is seen.
> Dan:
> As you know, I don't subscribe to your theory that the MOQ is a
> "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's idea and as such is a
> collection of intellectual patterns of value
Bo now:
I put IMOs (too many) all over my posts to forestall SA's cries of alarm,
and I know that you don't subscribe to my SOL About the MOQ being
Pirsig's idea I don't deny, but no copyright exist in philosophy. Pirsig
would have been superhuman not to overlook details in this immense
metaphysical de- and reconstruction so what's wrong with pointing out
snags - and repairing them - instead of insisting on stone tablets ...
and be the laughing stock of academy?
> That aside, the MOQ clearly states that culture is a collection of
> social and intellectual static patterns of value of a given people. A
> SOM culture (in which we all live) might say that culture is formed by
> the collective agreement of individuals within a given group. I don't
> see much of a difference. It's more a matter of where one starts, I
> suppose.
Well as said there were stone age cultures before the intellectual level,
thus theirs were social cultures. I agree about SOM the reality we now
live in ... all except this tiny group and then only the still tinier fraction
that subscribe to the SOL interpretation ;-).
Bo earlier:
> > Intellect is treating social customs as subjective because they are
> > something that only exist in people's mind and varies from one
> > social group to another.
Dan:
> Yes, though I would go so far as to say that the MOQ treats social
> customs as subjective (in the SOM sense) too.
The MOQ treats social patterns as social value, full stop! Only SOM
looks upon (what the MOQ calls) "social" as subjective (IMO intellect
peering down on existence from its high perch)
Bo earlier:
> > You want the "symbol manipulation" intellect to apply, but this is
> > not what Pirsig means, but the ability to pick up social signals,
> > important nevertheless, we are social beings too, but not the 4th
> > level.
Dan:
> Please provide a quote to support your statement. Perhaps that would
> clarify things for me here.
Right now I'm out of range of the MOQ material, but as I recall it
Pirsig's definition is the ability to manipulate the (other levels' patterns
stored as) symbols in the brain OF THE MANIPULATOR, not to
manipulate other people, but we may return to this.
Bo before:
> > My thoughts were and are that LILA postulates an immune system at
> > each level, but (also) calls intellect's system "the cultural immune
> > system)
"It was not something that he could talk about without
being slammed by the cultural immune system, being
thought crazy, and with his record it was not good to invite that
suspicion." (LILA)
> > He is correct about psychiatry being the 4th. level's immune
> > apparatus, but the "culture" concept muddles things. There are
> > cultures that don't have a notion of disturbed people as mentally
> > ill, they believe them possessed by evil spirits or by the devil
> > ...etc. So my conclusion is that these are social level cultures,
> > only the West has this "psychic" immune system and consequently is
> > the only intellectual level civilization. This proves for the
> > umpteenth time that intellect is the S/O distinction, in this
> > context the mental/corporeal, psychic/somatic variants.
Dan:
> I take it from this that you see Western culture as a collection of
> intellectual patterns of value only. I think you are being forced into
> this misinterpretation of the MOQ as a consequence of your own
> "invisible wall of prejudice" (your SOL theory).
You don't consider this glaring example of the SOL but act the Jesuit
"defending the faith". The West has the 4th. level as its focus (SOM's
high perch) but from the MOQ's still higher (or external) view intellect
rests on ALL levels so its a collection of all levels, but - for the
umpteenth time - intellect is a static level and blind to the Quality
context.
Thank you Dan for at least discussing the MOQ, that has become a
scarcity these days.
Bo
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