On Friday 15 February 2008 1:13 PM Arlo asks for thoughts: Hi Ian, Arlo. and all, [Ian] But It's a big leap to say that the individual is "therefore" distinction between social and intellectual
[Arlo] More than a big leap, its a foolhardy jump. Even the simplest read of the MOQ shows that ALL the levels are comprised of individuals of varying complexity interacting, and it is from this interaction that higher levels emerge, themselves consisting of individuals engaging collectively. [Joe] The literature on the evolution of levels in existence is sparse. Pirsig did not ask if there were an existing schema for levels, and the metaphysics of evolution is DQ. This is not much to go on. The levels in music are Do, Re, Mi, FA, Sol, La, Ti. The next note is double the intensity of the first, and then the octave repeats on a higher scale. I think color also has levels, but I don¹t know if they repeat with a greater intensity. I am most familiar with music from singing in Chorus and in Church choir. The intervals between notes are not all equal. Between Mi_Fa, and Si_Do vibrations slow down. Pythagoras described the harmonies of the spheres. Is music its own thing or a template from some other consideration? [Arlo] Consider the simplest example, from an inorganic atom (carbon) to a simple biological organism (amoeba). The amoeba appears only because of the collectivization going on on the inorganic level. It owes not its existence to a single carbon atom. What it does owe its existence to is the presence of individual carbon atoms acting collecetively. Hence you could just as easily see the amoeba as a "collective of inorganic patterns" as a "individual biological pattern". [Joe] Collectivization, I suppose, starts from one, and reproduction would be important. For the inorganic collision could be an answer for reproduction. [Arlo] Even with the levels this process is evident. From a singular amoeba to a duck-billed platypus depends on the collective activity of every increasing individual biological patterns. This interaction between individuals and collectives underscores the evolutionary processes at work within all the MOQ levels. The social layer emerges from the collective activity of biological patterns, just as the intellectual level emerges from the collective activity of social patterns. "Individual" or "collective" is simply a matter of pragmatic focus, nothing more. [Joe] Biological reproduction is two-fold, one-celled reproduction. A more sophisticated reproduction requiring two cells. One penetrating the cell-wall of the other. [Arlo] This is why Pirsig both points out the "me" is "just an impossible fiction that collapses the moment one examines it", but also understands the pragmatic benefit of this particular degree of focus. We create an "individual" out of a level of focus and then use it "as it is remembered that they're terms for collections of patterns and not some independent primary reality of their own". [Joe] Proprietary awareness-consciousness, is an awful gift. If I am on a desert island it is not so bad, but if I am with a family of primates, I am so alone with this gift. I am empty. I only am aware of how I am different. I just have to talk to someone. [Arlo] The "self" is one such concept emerging out the social level. But it is not the only concept to do so. The self is "an idea", or more precisely a "collection of ideas". It is not a primary, independent reality of its own. In this light, we can consider the value not of some ridiculously lone, isolated agent, but the value of the "individual-in-context". The value of the "self" is not its absolute autonomy and disconnectedness, but the fact that it is PART of a social dialogue. There is no "self" apart from the social world. (Caveat, there are certainly biological individuals, and these individuals would be responsive to biological quality, but there would be no self, no "mind", as these are social realities, not ones that arise from the inorganic or biological levels). [Joe] SOL! What a gift to a family. An inner man, an outer man [Arlo] The trouble here, I think, boils down to trying to pin-point that carbon property within the social level that gave rise to intellect. Pirsig articulated the unique properties of carbon on the inorganic level that allowed for the emergence of the biological. I think Tomasello's argument that a similar biological property that appeared in the neurobiology of early man was this "carbon property" that was seized upon by Dynamic Quality and gave rise to the social level. We are now looking for this "carbon property" among the social level. My current stance would be that the carbon property of social level patterns latched onto by DQ was the objectifying of symbols into entities-in-themselves. Once we could "think about thinking", once man began struggling to examine and analyze his own symbols, in this I think was the "carbon property" of social patterns from which the intellectual level emerged. Thoughts? On 2/15/08 1:13 PM, "Arlo Bensinger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > [Ian] > But It's a big leap to say that the individual is "therefore" > distinction between social and intellectual > > [Arlo] > More than a big leap, its a foolhardy jump. Even the simplest read of > the MOQ shows that ALL the levels are comprised of individuals of > varying complexity interacting, and it is from this interaction that > higher levels emerge, themselves consisting of individuals engaging > collectively. > > Consider the simplest example, from an inorganic atom (carbon) to a > simple biological organism (amoeba). The amoeba appears only because > of the collectivization going on on the inorganic level. It owes not > its existence to a single carbon atom. What it does owe its existence > to is the presence of individual carbon atoms acting collecetively. > Hence you could just as easily see the amoeba as a "collective of > inorganic patterns" as a "individual biological pattern". > > Even with the levels this process is evident. From a singular amoeba > to a duck-billed platypus depends on the collective activity of every > increasing individual biological patterns. This interaction between > individuals and collectives underscores the evolutionary processes at > work within all the MOQ levels. The social layer emerges from the > collective activity of biological patterns, just as the intellectual > level emerges from the collective activity of social patterns. > "Individual" or "collective" is simply a matter of pragmatic focus, > nothing more. > > This is why Pirsig both points out the "me" is "just an impossible > fiction that collapses the moment one examines it", but also > understands the pragmatic benefit of this particular degree of focus. > We create an "individual" out of a level of focus and then use it "as > it is remembered that they're terms for collections of patterns and > not some independent primary reality of their own". > > The "self" is one such concept emerging out the social level. But it > is not the only concept to do so. The self is "an idea", or more > precisely a "collection of ideas". It is not a primary, independent > reality of its own. > > In this light, we can consider the value not of some ridiculously > lone, isolated agent, but the value of the "individual-in-context". > The value of the "self" is not its absolute autonomy and > disconnectedness, but the fact that it is PART of a social dialogue. > There is no "self" apart from the social world. (Caveat, there are > certainly biological individuals, and these individuals would be > responsive to biological quality, but there would be no self, no > "mind", as these are social realities, not ones that arise from the > inorganic or biological levels). > > The trouble here, I think, boils down to trying to pin-point that > carbon property within the social level that gave rise to intellect. > Pirsig articulated the unique properties of carbon on the inorganic > level that allowed for the emergence of the biological. I think > Tomasello's argument that a similar biological property that appeared > in the neurobiology of early man was this "carbon property" that was > seized upon by Dynamic Quality and gave rise to the social level. We > are now looking for this "carbon property" among the social level. > > My current stance would be that the carbon property of social level > patterns latched onto by DQ was the objectifying of symbols into > entities-in-themselves. Once we could "think about thinking", once > man began struggling to examine and analyze his own symbols, in this > I think was the "carbon property" of social patterns from which the > intellectual level emerged. > > Thoughts? > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
