Well, yes. If we're going to make assertions then its important to be clear about what certain words are supposed to mean. But the over-riding idea (in Pirsig, James, Dewey, Heidegger and others) is that the phenomena precede and exceed anything we might say about them. It is what's given in experience before you have a chance to think about it, as in the hot stove example. Heidegger's insight was that the so-called sense data of traditional empiricism is never actually experienced. Its just a theory. We don't receive the acoustic waves into our ears, add it up in the mind and then say, "Hey, I heard a door slam". No, none of that ever happens. We just hear the door slam as a door slam, immediately. We have to learn about slamming and doors in the process of language acquisition but all of that learning fades into the background and becomes automatic, becomes the habitual way we know the world. That's how we can be "suspended in language" without realizing it. That was the ma in thing that Descartes never saw. You know, he should have said, "French culture exists, therefore I think, therefore I am".
I recently finished a term paper for a course in the PHILOSOPHY OF ART. In the process I learned that Dewey and Heidegger both have a lot in common with Pirsig in terms of the code of art. That surprised me a little. For anyone who might be interested in that, I'd suggest Dewey's "Art and Civilization", which is a section of his book "Art as Experience". I think its the final chapter of the book. Heidegger's thought on that topic is probably more scattered, so there I'd suggest looking into the concept of "World Disclosure". Interestingly, Heidegger's critique of scientific materialism and technology are strikingly similar to Pirsig's and he thought Art was the most likely cure. Its been tons of fun to see that Pirsig's ideas not only have support in the philosophical world, they're supported by the really remarkable ones. I thought it was gonna be tough to find connections but its actually more like living in a candy store. ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 16 May 2008 07:36:48 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] Truth and the Linguistic Turn > > Great to have you back Dave, with new material too, > > That "simply says" statement of phenomenal realism sounds good, is > good, and for me the pragmatic thing is that it includes "have to try > to start ..." - ie it's about intent. > > The danger (in a debate, such as may ensue here) is that read as a > "definition" we are still left with "phenomena" and "experience" to > debate and define, or at least explain as distinct from how a > SOMist-empiricist might understand them. No ? > > Ian > > On 5/15/08, david buchanan wrote: >> >> Matt said to Ron: >> I'd like to just comment on the notion that Pirsig places truth-finding in >> pre-intellectual experience. I described it as conventional because I think >> it is what lays behind many of Platt's rants about pre-intellectual >> experience, but many others, too, mainly dealing with the notion of radical >> empiricism needing to act as foundation to pragmatism or else it'll spin off >> into relativism. I don't like this notion, I think it is antithetical to >> both pragmatism and Pirsig,.. ...Pirsig does, indeed, locate "certainty" >> pre-intellectually. This is the same move Descartes made to inaugurate >> modern philosophy, part of the move I called earlier the shift from talking >> about reality to talking about experience. >> >> dmb says: >> Pardon me for butting in, gents. I just finished the semester and couldn't >> resist jumping right back in. >> >> I'm not eager to align myself with Platt and his "rants" are unknown to me >> but its safe to say I'm one of the "many others" who think radical >> empiricism is crucial. Matt and I have been debating that issue for >> centuries. We used to argue about Rorty in Latin, that's how long its been. >> Anyway, I have at least one fresh new way to say it. Well, its new to me and >> fresh in terms of what's been said in our debate. "Phenomenological realism" >> is a label for the same stance. It describes radical empiricism without the >> Cartesian implications. I'm not sure if Heidegger coined it or if it was >> just his commentators, but I picked up studying the crazy old Nazi. Dewey >> essentially says the same thing, except without all the jargon and fascism. >> Anyway, phenomenological realism simply says that we have to try to start >> with the phenomena, with whatever is given in experience. But, as you know, >> Heidegger specifically rejected the Cartesian version of phenomenology he >> inherited from Husserl a n > d >> then spent the rest of his career rejecting further and in all sorts of >> ways. Phenomenological realism is a decidedly un-SOM empiricism, if you will. >> >> When I think about quality in terms of phenomena many points connect. >> There's almost an audible clicking noise leaking out my ears. Try it. Its >> fun. >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Stay in touch when you're away with Windows Live Messenger. >> http://www.windowslive.com/messenger/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_messenger_052008 >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ Keep your kids safer online with Windows Live Family Safety. http://www.windowslive.com/family_safety/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_family_safety_052008 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
