Hi Ron,
Matt said: You said that "objectivism defines 'certainty' intellectually, whereas Pirsig places 'certainty' pre-intellectually." I'd like to first point out that the phrase I asked for expansion on was about "truth-finding" and in doing so, you moved to talk about "certainty." This isn't inherently bad, all one needs to do is connect the two. However, I think very traditional, philosophical problems will arise when you do, problems we Pirsigians know of as "SOM." Ron said: What you state, the reservations of how objectivism relocates it's foundation On which it bases it's certainty, Renovating the structure of truth finding to have it Originate in the first person is not as unreasonable as one might think. You bring up hallucinations. The first person experience Is "true" it may not be verifiable but the experience Is real. That part is certain. Whether or not it's Verifiably certain seems to me another matter. One Which may involve objectivism to establish. The pitfall To avoid intellectually is one of objectifying experiences To define truth or certainty itself. Matt: If I'm reading you correctly, then we already agree on a lot. It sounds to me that in the above you are making a distinction between "certainty" (which we have of experiences) and "verifiable certainty" (which is something we need for knowledge/truth). I understand the latter by way of your further statement later, "To me, there seems to be a discrepancy from certainty and whether or/Not it is true or false." I take the above to be in full accordance with my, "And it is agreed by most philosophers (and all laypeople) that knowledge and process of finding truth begins with our experience of the world. But what is the utility in placing truth in the moment of presentness if it might be false when it becomes the past in the next moment?" The first statement is the agreement on "we all start from the first-person stance." I would take your answer to the question to be, "None, there is no utility in placing truth there." If all that is agreed to, then I have three comments/suggestions: 1) I had originally commented on "truth-finding" when you moved to talk about certainty and objectivism. I think in developing a sustained interpretation, how all these things relate should become clearer. For instance, the notion of "verifiable" and it's use in knowledge/truth, but not the certainty of having an experience. I agree with the general outlines, and in developing your view, it would interesting to see how you relate the "certainty" (all alone, as it is) of the first-person point of view to the "verifiable certainty" (with a new friend) of truth/knowledge. 2) You suggest "verifiable certainty" may involve "objectivism to establish." I would develop what you mean by "objectivism," especially how it relates to "SOM." The way I would use the terms must certainly be different because I don't think "SOM" refers to anything other than optional philosophical views. I understand that Bo doesn't, and that your view owes something to his view, so I would develop and make very clear what things you think are necessary to reality (first instance, in my terms, the first-person point of view) and those things that are optional (for instance, in your terms, intellectually defining certainty). 3) I think your bridge to grammar and language is good, and I would expand on it. However, I would add the caveat that, if you try too hard to stick to parameters laid out by Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality, you might stymie your own search. Follow your nose, draw your own map, and let your work shine a light on Pirsig and see how Pirsig's work shines a light on yours. Matt _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
