Krimel said to dmb: Who says that today's myths any more alienating than myths of the past? Do you find the gods and goddess meddling in the Trojan wars endearing? Do Kali and Shiva sound like people you want for neighbors?
dmb replies: Who says? Lots of people. I'm talking about what Max Weber called "the disenchanted world" or what Ken Wilber calls "flatland". Nietzsche's phrase is probably the most famous; "The death of God". Hiedegger called it "enframing", a word that conveys the idea of a structure, a limited scope and a skeleton all at the same time. Similarly, Pirsig's "amoral scientific materialism" is characterized as a culture-wide emphasis on prediction and control. Jung's "Modern Man in Search of a Soul" addresses this problem. It is more or less the central idea in all of Joseph Campbell's work. Existentialism in general is concerned with it. I imagine there are a whole bunch of other people I don't even know about. The culture warriors on the right complain about this disenchantment in terms like "secular humanism" and this is basically what's behind the battle between science and religion. You know, the one that's been going on for at least a century or two. But Nietzsche's "death of God" doesn't just mean the inability to believe in religion. Its about the evacuation of all values. Pirsig's complaints about SOM in general and old style sensory empiricism in particular should ring a bell on that account. Maybe you don't appreciate the problem or care about it but it has been widely recognized and discussed. It certainly isn't about how cozy I feel or who I'd want for a neighbor. Although it would be nice if Kate Beckinsale moved in next door. [Krimel] Boy is somebody's glass half empty. Notice that my question above had to do with a comparison of the situation today as opposed to sometime in the past. What makes you think things were any less alienating yesterday than today? In Creative Mythology Campbell points to seismic shifts in culture that have been producing both disillusionment and new mythologies since the twelfth century. The mythos is only static to the extent that the culture it evolves in is static. It ceases to function and must change to the extent that the culture it supports must change. Campbell was also heavily involved in explaining, examining and changing both the old mythos and the evolving the new mythos of our age. Weber, Nietzsche and Jung were all in varying degrees addresing the Victorian age where the industrial revolution that moving western culture from being primarily agricultural to primarily urban. Again it was the pace of change in that age that produced the alienation. It is not as though this kind of change is unprecedented either. During the time of Plato the philosophers were overturning the Olympian Gods in favor of rationalism. Half a century later the Roman empire replace a myriad of local mythologies with that of a renegade Jewish cult. As for existentialism, what it tells us is to stop whining and looking to the cosmos or god or someone else to tell you what your purpose is. It isn't out there and no one but a huckster can give it to you. Butch up and find the meaning of your life within your life. To do otherwise is to shirk your ultimate responsibility. You are not going to suck me into a discussion of your favorite new age hack. But my point above is there is no shortage of mythmaking going on and it gains acceptance to the extent that it helps people understand their place in the world they find themselves in. dmb replies: Ever notice how christian fish types drive too slowly and don't mind at all about being in the way? That cracks me up because its such a nice metaphor for their role in the culture. [Krimel] I had to get a new car not long ago and the first thing I did was slap Darwin fish on the back bumper. I risk getting it "keyed" around here but then I suspect most folks can't even figure out what it is. They probably see it as some kind of Greek Orthodox symbol. I'm hoping that if Kate Beckinsale ever comes down here to visit Disney she might see it and get turned on. It's a long shot but evolution works that way sometimes. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
