DM said to dmb: ...don't you think attacking religion more generally is a bit of a hopeless case? Now that you have nearly grown up don't you think you need to start asking yourself how you are going to find a better way to live with religious people and encourage them to embrace the better forms of religion that are available? Is there not a possibility for getting religious people to think about religion in more MOQ type terms than the sort of pseudo-science fundamentalist terms that claim they have evidence and certainties and subjective-values of their own. Does not MOQ mean that values need to be recognised, discussed and debated and criticised as part of our approach to reason? And if we admit this do we not have to admit to the debate religious values for discussion and critical reflection too?
dmb replies: Does anyone here debate or discuss religion more than me? Does anyone encourage a MOQish revision of this issues more than me? And why is it suddenly all about me? Your insulting suggestions that 1) I'm an advocate of a hopeless case, 2) I need to grow up, 3) and need to live with religious people, 4) and admit the other guy's view has value, all strike me as quite odd because that's exactly the problem with religious people. Their case is hopeless, they need to grow up, they're intolerant of other points of view and even believe that secular values are the work of the devil. But the way you construe it, the unwillingness to embrace this hateful bigotry is itself a form a prejudice. Well, obviously the cause of tolerance is not served by embracing intolerance and the fight against prejudice is not served by embracing the bigots. DM continued: ...To my mind, the secular ban on religious thinking has made fundamentalism possible because it such a ban fails to subject values to critical discussion. Now see if you can resist the knee-jerk reaction and just see if trying this suggestion has some value. You know Dave what is the alternative? A secular crusade? My proposal is that we have to talk to all comers, and we are going to have to learn to accommodate diverse values, and so will the fundamentalists, the alternative is not nihilism but annihilation is it not? dmb replies: The "secular ban on religious thinking" exists primarily in the paranoid minds of fundamentalists. As far as law and history go, there is no ban. There is "a wall of separation" between church and state, which is designed to insure religious freedom, freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of association and a number of other moral principles. Obviously, these are the principles that protect and "accommodate diverse values" and it just so happens that these are the principles under attack by religious partisans. But I think the idea this would somehow lead to a genocidal "secular crusade" really takes the cake. Frankly, that's just stupid. If the future is anything like the past, the unbelievers, infidels and blasphemers will be the victims of violence, not the perpetrators. Maybe its because you don't live in the USA, which is the most religious Western nation by far. Maybe its just because of your own faith. Maybe its just that you need to read a history book or two. I really don't know what the reasons are, but it looks to me like you don't really know what's going on. Did you know, for example, that several of the most prominent religious leaders expressed the view that the attacks on September 11th and the hurricane that hit New Orleans were both sent by God to punish this country for its tolerance of abortion and gay people? Did you know that the "Left Behind" series, books and films which depict a genocidal fantasy in which everyone except the right kind of Christian is wiped out, is gobbled up by the millions? Most recently, there was a preacher who said Hitler's genocide against the Jews was also God's doing. If you're worried about fanatics who have murder in mind it makes a lot more sense to look in that direction. When abortion doctors start shooting pro-life crusaders and bombing churches, instead of the other way around, maybe you'll have a good point retroactively. The "violence" of the anti-theists might include some cutting remarks, which might hurt somebody's feelings, but they don't draw actual blood. Unless and until these roles are reversed, you don't have a leg to stand on. _________________________________________________________________ E-mail for the greater good. Join the i’m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ GreaterGood Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
