Hi DMB
dmb replies:
Does anyone here debate or discuss religion more than me? Does anyone
encourage a MOQish revision of this issues more than me? And why is it
suddenly all about me? Your insulting suggestions that 1) I'm an advocate of
a hopeless case, 2) I need to grow up, 3) and need to live with religious
people, 4) and admit the other guy's view has value, all strike me as quite
odd because that's exactly the problem with religious people.
DM: If it don't apply to you, great! And yes many religious people need to
get over these problems, but we need to hold the standard we want religious
people to accept too.
Their case is hopeless, they need to grow up, they're intolerant of other
points of view and even believe that secular values are the work of the
devil. But the way you construe it, the unwillingness to embrace this
hateful bigotry is itself a form a prejudice. Well, obviously the cause of
tolerance is not served by embracing intolerance and the fight against
prejudice is not served by embracing the bigots.
DM: Sure you have to struggle with the bigots, but you have to keep offering
to talk to them if they play nice. My point is
we should hold ourselves to the highest standards, I am being hyper-critical
here, I am sure if we come to a fist fight
I'm on your side with the other secularists.
dmb replies:
The "secular ban on religious thinking" exists primarily in the paranoid
minds of fundamentalists.
DM: Yes to a large extent, but I have seen professors be awful to religious
students. Of course you are being very
general here, don't you mean a certain paranoid element of fundamentalists.
As far as law and history go, there is no ban. There is "a wall of
separation" between church and state, which is designed to insure religious
freedom, freedom of conscience, freedom of speech, freedom of association
and a number of other moral principles. Obviously, these are the principles
that protect and "accommodate diverse values" and it just so happens that
these are the principles under attack by religious partisans. But I think
the idea this would somehow lead to a genocidal "secular crusade" really
takes the cake. Frankly, that's just stupid.
DM: Stupid, yes, exactly. So what would your peace terms be? Anyway, the law
is one thing, but what is the attitude to religious values in
US universities,are they really up for discussion, don't people chicken out
from discussing them critically?
If the future is anything like the past, the unbelievers, infidels and
blasphemers will be the victims of violence, not the perpetrators.
DM: Not been so exclusive has it. But how are we to get in a better place?
Maybe its because you don't live in the USA, which is the most religious
Western nation by far.
DM: Yes that is key here I am sure. The most active religion here is perhaps
Islam.
Maybe its just because of your own faith.
DM: I have no time for faith myself, I do want to allow it for others
though, and hope that would be a better place to negotiate from.
Maybe its just that you need to read a history book or two.
DM: Another couple would make 402 then.
I really don't know what the reasons are,
DM: For what being critical, I make an ugly cheer leader, but my legs are
not bad! Ra Ra DMB!
but it looks to me like you don't really know what's going on.
DM: Happy for you to tell me.
Did you know, for example, that several of the most prominent religious
leaders expressed the view that the attacks on September 11th and the
hurricane that hit New Orleans were both sent by God to punish this country
for its tolerance of abortion and gay people? Did you know that the "Left
Behind" series, books and films which depict a genocidal fantasy in which
everyone except the right kind of Christian is wiped out, is gobbled up by
the millions? Most recently, there was a preacher who said Hitler's genocide
against the Jews was also God's doing. If you're worried about fanatics who
have murder in mind it makes a lot more sense to look in that direction.
When abortion doctors start shooting pro-life crusaders and bombing
churches, instead of the other way around, maybe you'll have a good point
retroactively. The "violence" of the anti-theists might include some cutting
remarks, which might hurt somebody's feelings, but they don't draw actual
blood. Unless and until these roles are reversed, you don't have a leg to
stand on.
DM: I know, you are right to bring these things up. They are top notch bad
stuff. But I have a question, why are someof the religious so mad and angry
and have we mishandled them? And how do we make friends with the less mad
and angry? That's my angle.
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