Marsha:
I thinking the levels are categories of patterns: inorganic,
biological, social and intellectual. My idea is that all patterns
are conceptual, but are referring to something.
woods:
I'm going to try to go through this slowly so I don't get
mixed up.
First, are you talking about the patterns of inorganic, biological,
social, and intellectual here or are you talking about the intellectual
patterns in which categorized inorganic, biological, social, and
intellectual? I see a difference.
Marsha:
In the case of inorganic and biological, these patterns have as their referent
external, natural phenomenon, such as what you are calling trees, or
as I might be calling granite. Social and intellectual patterns are
conceptual patterns pointing to concepts/ideas, such as Socialism and
theoretical mathematics.
Try this. If you strip away all concepts(name, definition,
attributes, etc.(all concepts)) from a tree, what is left? Pure,
direct experience (value, quality).
The value that the static pattern of value represents is not a
tree.
woods:
I really don't get this last sentence. A tree is not an organic spov? Is
that
what your saying?
Marsha:
A tree is not a thing. It is a process without a name,
boundaries, or a beginning and end. It is for human convenience that
we isolate and assign concepts to processes.
woods:
It is for human convenience that we assign an intellectual spov of a tree,
but
the biological spov tree remains.
Marsha:
Pure direct experience seems to be the senses and
emotion/feeling. The third value distinct from mental and physical
is the emotion value: fear, beauty, etc.
woods:
I don't think value is only emotion. I thought value had four levels.
Inorganic,
organic, social, and intellectual and then dynamic value and then another
called
value (or quality).
I don't think pure direct experience is narrowed into senses and
emotion/feeling only.
Those are biological spov's. I thought direct experience was value, thus, the
direct experience
of each level is present. Each spov of each level has their own direct
experience.
Marsha:
Static patterns seem to carry a memory of emotions/feelings. This
might be carried as body intelligence. They don't seem to be in the head.
What do you think?
Am I sounding like a nutcase?
woods:
Not a nutcase. Searching through we both are. These static patterns that
you
are referring to here are organic spov's. I wouldn't say just "Static
patterns".
What do you think?
woods
>are here too:
>
>ZMM (Chapter 25):
>"This inner peace of mind
>occurs on three levels of understanding.
>Physical quietness seems the easiest
>to achieve, although there are
>levels and levels of this too, as attested by
>the ability of Hindu
>mystics to live buried alive for many days. Mental
>quietness, in
>which one has no wandering thoughts at all, seems more difficult,
>but can be achieved. But value quietness, in which one has no
>wandering desires
>at all but simply performs the acts of his life
>without desire, that seems the
>hardest."
>
>woods continues:
> I'm particularly noticing that mental or thoughts, concepts are one
>way of understanding, at least in accord with this excerpt from ZMM.
>Values, including intellectual static pattern of values, are something
>distinct from only thoughts or concepts. Thoughts and concepts are
>intellectual values, but mental quietness is another value of intellect.
>Also, all the other static patterns of value: inorganic, organic,
>social, thereby
>are not intellectual static pattern of value (spov). These are
>values, not mental. Up
>above Pirsig is pointing out physical, mental, and a distinct third level of
>understanding called value.
>
>
>woods
>
>
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