At 07:29 PM 10/24/2008, you wrote:
Hi Marsha
I think we experience without concepts and there are patterns
we experience before we name them, then language enables
us to trace out and name these patterns and this skill can
be taken further and used to trace out more patterns that
pre-linguistic experience could not use.
Hi David,
I totally agree direct experience is without patterns. And I am not
stating that what is conceptual is necessarily a pattern. It think
thoughts can be direct experience too. I am thinking _patterns_ are
conceptual (mental activity) in nature.
There must be a time when a pattern is recognized, yet not yet
named. There may be a time when a pattern is recognized, but the
name as an aspect of a patterns has not been recalled. This seems
plausible, but in general, patterns have designations.
I still think that patterns are conceptual, mental, in nature. Memory?
Language enables
an increasing ability to trace out patterns, some patterns
are closer to causes others to possibilities, all equally real,
whether having pre or post linguistic identities.
My topic is not language. My topic is the nature of patterns
(spovs), which I say is conceptual. I'm using the word conceptual to
mean mental activity. The mental activity could certainly, at
least, be images. Auditory too.
So my idea is that patterns are conceptual (mental activity), and, in
the case of inorganic, NOT the external natural phenomenon. The
patterns refers to the external natural phenomenon, but IS NOT the
external natural phenomenon.
What do you think of what I think?
Marsha
At 03:32 PM 10/23/2008, you wrote:
Hi Marsha
When you eat an apple I'd suggest that a pre-linguistic pattern
repeats, i.e. the taste, of course we trace the patterns that are
ofhuman interest to us like the horizon but nature is not just a
flux thereis order and change, SQ and DQ, with new SQ
continuing to emerge via both nature and culture, all patterns
to the MOQ.
DM,
I don't understand your response to my post. Is an organic pattern
named tree, actual phenomena or is it conceptual pattern referring
to phenomena? Yes, DQ is the flow though which all patterns change.
Marsha
SA,
A bit of a new beginning.
When I say the nature of all patterns is conceptual, I'm saying
that patterns are mental in nature. They are held in
minds. What an individual pattern refers to can be categorized
as inorganic, biological, social and intellectual. This is
important. The pattern is the static part of the experience, it
is not the experience.
The referent of inorganic and biological level patterns are
external, natural phenomenon. Kind of like things. But there
really are no 'things'. There are only ever-changing,
interrelated, overlapping systems and processes. Nature does not
name, define or isolate.
The referent of social and intellectual level patterns are
ideas. I understand Intellectual-static-patterns-of-value to be
"defined very loosely as the level of independently manipulable
signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as the
rules of this sign manipulation." (letter to Paul Turn 2003)
Let's not get into the problems of intellectual spov versus
thinking. Thinking is not an indication of a
intellectual-static-pattern-of-value. Thinking to me is a tool
like seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling.
What do you think?
Marsha
.
.
The Universe is uncaused, like a net of jewels in which each is a
reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.
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reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.
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reflection of all the others in a fantastic, interrelated harmony without end.
.
.
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