Andrè and Woods 26 Oct.
Woods originally: > > P.S. I'm wondering about the threat that the EU > > has given to Ireland since they have recently > > rejected being apart of the EU. I also > > hear that Germany and Austria, and even the UK > > has movements that lean to get out of the EU. I > > hear many in EU are not really in favor of being in > > the EU, but if anybody in Europe could comment. > > With the threat on Ireland and many calls for a > > World Goverance by France president, EU committee > > president, UK's Brown, Italian prime minister, etc... > > sounds as if Europe is trying to throw around some > > authoritarian power. Ireland IS a member of the EU, it was the referendum on the new constitution that they rejected as did The Netherlands and (was it France?) last year. Ireland was a backward place when it joined but now after having reaped the benefits they don't want to strengthen the EU. Much like Europe in general being helped by the Marshall Plan after WW2 and then turning against the USA. OK, there may be many sides to this. Andre: > I'll have a smal shot at this Woods, being a (Dutch) European. I > haven't been in Europe for 2,5 years so can only go on reports from > the media and from memory. I voted in that referendum to > accept/reject adoptation of a European "constitution". I voted > against. You have a gift of writing interesting posts Andrè, a welcome respite from the US election that has invaded the discussion. > Holland has always been in favour of the establishment of an EU. It > was one of the pioneers in geting it established in the first place. > Its primary motivation was economic (self interest). It has always > been a trading nation and with an EU, exports/imports were to be > moved more freely and smoothly, no import duties/ tariffs etc. Freer > movement of goods, services and people. The idea was good, but this > development must be placed in the general context of globalisation > and rise of religious fundamentalism. I voted "yes" in the two referendum held in Norway (1971 and - 94) but regrettably this country consists of square-heads who believe that the EU is "out to get our resources", not realizing that the big countries sacrifice the most and the small gain the most by being members. > Over a period of a few years the political/ economic and social > climate changed...unfortunately for the worse: The introduction of > the Euro as common EU legal tender. In Holland there was no "public > consultation" in the form of a referendum regarding this. It was > enforced by the political/financial sector and despite flat denials > by these that the cost of living had drastically gone up it had in > fact done so as was borne out later through various researches and > surveys. The murder of Pim Fortuyn, right-wing populist, and the > murder of Theo van Gogh, film maker cleared the way for the > expression of anger and resentment within the social level. > Traditionally the Dutch had been regarded as tolerant but it > appeared this tolerance was only skin deep. Holland has a large > ethnic population..Moroccan, Turkish, Dutch Antills, Yugoslav > etc.all of whom lived in relative peace with one another. These > murders sparked a reaction which shocked me and I think shocked > intellectual paterns of value. Overt expressions of racism, > intolerance, anger. An animal rights activist had killed Fortuyn and > a young Muslim man had killed Theo van Gogh. I happened to be in > Paris and later in the centre of Australia respectively when these > events and their immediate aftermath occured. But returning to > Holland one could feel the tension in the air so to speak. Thus, > within the context of these i.e. economic hardship, race relations, > immigration issues, Islamist extremism, high cost of living and the > non response from the intellectual/political level came the EU > constitution. If I remember correctly, 66% (?) voted NO (me > included) but, and here is the crux, it wasn't so much against the " > Idea" of an EU it was a vote of no-confidence in the intellectual > patterns of value. The constitution was seen as a pet project of an > unpopular political elite which was seen as far removed from > people's real concerns. I remember talking to many people who voted > No, and when asked: "Are you against the EU then? " simply said no, > we believe in the idea of a European Community but it needs to be so > formed and formulated that we do not lose ourselves nor what we have > worked hard for all our lives. As said, highly interesting, however IMO the murder of Fortuyn and Van Gogh was the Muslim immigrants who believe that their religious codes are to be implemented in Western Europe. A Norwegian publisher was shot after launching Rushdie's "Satanic Verses". Who did it has never been discovered, but surely a fanatic out to execute Khomeini's "fatwah". The said anger and resentment is the intellect- steeped Holländers feeling their culture threatened .... and I'd say most justified. > Pirsig talks about social quality. The problem in Europe is that > this social quality is very unevenly achieved. It suggests that > people in countries that have achieved a fair level of quality feel > their achievements will be eroded and that is a real issue and of > real concern. For example: cheap (illegal) Polish workers flooding > the Dutch labour market (they still do) taking over jobs, not > worried about working conditions, health conditions, taxes, premiums > for pensions and other benefits etc, etc, all these are tightly > interwoven within the Dutch system. But everyone must be aware of > and committed to play this game which simply means adhering to > social/intellectual PoV's. If this doesn't happen the pudding will > collapse. That is what people are worried about. I don't know if distribution of wealth, welfare and such are Q-social "qualities", this is what intellect has brought and - when violated - intellect protests. An example of a true social value-steeped culture is the Muslim one and it is known for its tolerance to uneven distribution of wealth, sultans and kings, dictators, lack of human worth and rights, independent judicial system ...etc. Foreign workers threatening the wages of the local workers may be serious enough, but is an "intellect- steeped society" problem. > Already we see of course China as a privider of cheap labour to > major and minor international corporations. Businesses are closing > their doors in Europe and shift elsewhere, creating and adding to > the unemployment lines. This causes pressure on society, people see > their gains and in some instances life long savings and security go > up in smoke and the last thing people want to be reminded of is an > extra layer of bureaucracy and intellectual PoV's in the form of the > EU. Even if the goods is made in China it has the same effect as cheap labor and this I believe is unavoidable, it will force Holland as well as Norway to develop new fields. The Chinese may even come in person, they never impose their customs on the hosts (none South Asians do) > Not sure if this makes sense woods.It is a case of clap trap and > overload, a thread we wanted to start. Lots of sense, hope mine does and I don't sound like a cryptofascist...... like I did to DMB. > I'll finish with a quote from Pirsig:"The end of the twentieth > century in America seems to be an intellectual, social and economic > rust-belt...slowly trying to slip back to Victorianism, the last > static ratchet-latch. Not only America it seems. The frightning > thing is that the threat to these hard won patterns of social > quality are beginning to express themselves into ever extreme forms > of patriottism..which leads to nationalism which leads to.....we all > know what. This depends on how the intellectual level is interpreted - as well as the social. As said, resenting foreign labor and/or cheap imported goods is hardly a longing for a social-values-run-society. THAT would more likely be the Medieval feudal system where each person had their fixed positions sanctioned by God. At least this is something different from the Fortyun and Van Gogh issue where intellectual value is threatened by the true social values of a God-(Allah)-sanctioned order. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
