woods P.S. I'm wondering about the threat that the EU has given to Ireland since they have recently rejected being apart of the EU. I also hear that Germany and Austria, and even the UK has movements that lean to get out of the EU. I hear many in EU are not really in favor of being in the EU, but if anybody in Europe could comment. With the threat on Ireland and many calls for a World Goverance by France president, EU committee president, UK's Brown, Italian prime minister, etc... sounds as if Europe is trying to throw around some authoritarian power.
Andre: I'll have a smal shot at this Woods, being a (Dutch) European. I haven't been in Europe for 2,5 years so can only go on reports from the media and from memory. I voted in that referendum to accept/reject adoptation of a European "constitution". I voted against. Let me start with quoting Pirsig, ZMM p290-1: "I think that if we are going to reform the world, and make it a better pace to live in, the way to do it is not with talk about relationships of a political nature.....or with programs full of things for other people to do....that kind of approach starts at the end and presumes the end is the beginning. Programs of a political nature are important *end products *of social quality that can be effective only if the underlying structure of social values is right". Holland has always been in favour of the establishment of an EU. It was one of the pioneers in geting it established in the first place. Its primary motivation was economic (self interest). It has always been a trading nation and with an EU, exports/imports were to be moved more freely and smoothly, no import duties/ tariffs etc. Freer movement of goods, services and people. The idea was good, but this development must be placed in the general context of globalisation and rise of religious fundamentalism. Over a period of a few years the political/ economic and social climate changed...unfortunately for the worse: The introduction of the Euro as common EU legal tender. In Holland there was no "public consultation" in the form of a referendum regarding this. It was enforced by the political/financial sector and despite flat denials by these that the cost of living had drastically gone up it had in fact done so as was borne out later through various researches and surveys. The murder of Pim Fortuyn, right-wing populist, and the murder of Theo van Gogh, film maker cleared the way for the expression of anger and resentment within the social level. Traditionally the Dutch had been regarded as tolerant but it appeared this tolerance was only skin deep. Holland has a large ethnic population..Moroccan, Turkish, Dutch Antills, Yugoslav etc.all of whom lived in relative peace with one another. These murders sparked a reaction which shocked me and I think shocked intellectual paterns of value. Overt expressions of racism, intolerance, anger. An animal rights activist had killed Fortuyn and a young Muslim man had killed Theo van Gogh. I happened to be in Paris and later in the centre of Australia respectively when these events and their immediate aftermath occured. But returning to Holland one could feel the tension in the air so to speak. Thus, within the context of these i.e. economic hardship, race relations, immigration issues, Islamist extremism, high cost of living and the non response from the intellectual/political level came the EU constitution. If I remember correctly, 66% (?) voted NO (me included) but, and here is the crux, it wasn't so much against the " Idea" of an EU it was a vote of no-confidence in the intellectual patterns of value. The constitution was seen as a pet project of an unpopular political elite which was seen as far removed from people's real concerns. I remember talking to many people who voted No, and when asked: "Are you against the EU then? " simply said no, we believe in the idea of a European Community but it needs to be so formed and formulated that we do not lose ourselves nor what we have worked hard for all our lives. Pirsig talks about social quality. The problem in Europe is that this social quality is very unevenly achieved. It suggests that people in countries that have achieved a fair level of quality feel their achievements will be eroded and that is a real issue and of real concern. For example: cheap (illegal) Polish workers flooding the Dutch labour market (they still do) taking over jobs, not worried about working conditions, health conditions, taxes, premiums for pensions and other benefits etc, etc, all these are tightly interwoven within the Dutch system. But everyone must be aware of and committed to play this game which simply means adhering to social/intellectual PoV's. If this doesn't happen the pudding will collapse. That is what people are worried about. Already we see of course China as a privider of cheap labour to major and minor international corporations. Businesses are closing their doors in Europe and shift elsewhere, creating and adding to the unemployment lines. This causes pressure on society, people see their gains and in some instances life long savings and security go up in smoke and the last thing people want to be reminded of is an extra layer of bureaucracy and intellectual PoV's in the form of the EU. Not sure if this makes sense woods.It is a case of clap trap and overload, a thread we wanted to start. I'll finish with a quote from Pirsig:"The end of the twentieth century in America seems to be an intellectual, social and economic rust-belt...slowly trying to slip back to Victorianism, the last static ratchet-latch. Not only America it seems. The frightning thing is that the threat to these hard won patterns of social quality are beginning to express themselves into ever extreme forms of patriottism..which leads to nationalism which leads to.....we all know what. We need to reconsider our market thinking, our economic logic etc etc. Int. PoV's have lost touch with its parent. It's another example of the generation gap and this is a serious problem. Andre Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
