Krimel said to dmb: Cartesian assumptions? ...Saying that you are rejecting solipsism by rejecting Descartes is just rearranging the bumper stickers on your car. ...By the way Descartes "cogito" is not at all to be equated with Cartesian dualism.
dmb replies: Descartes' famous saying (I think therefore I am) is the classic case of solipsism. It comes from his famous Meditations, where he concludes that his own existence is the only thing he could know for sure and God is the only thing that rescues him from this solipsism. His "cogito" would be just one half of mind/matter dualism. Pirsig corrects that famous saying, pointing out that it would be more correct to say, "French language exists, therefore I think, therefore I am". That's just one passage where we find the assertion that ideas are culturally derived but that one goes right to the point. Radical Empiricism, by the way, is a direct attack on this dualism. As I've said here many, many times you'll find Pirsig talking about this a quoting James on exactly this point at the end of Lila's chapter 29. "Subjects and objects are secondary. They are concepts derived from something more fundamental which he described as 'the immediate flux of life which furnishes the material to our later reflection with its conceptual categories.' In this basic flux of experience, the distinctions of reflective thought, such as those between consciousness and content, subject and object, mind and matter have not yet emerged in the forms which we make them. Pure experience cannot be called either physical or psychical; it logically precedes this distinction." Obviously, this involves far more than bumper stickers. I would also point out, as I have many times, that this Cartesian dualism (SOM) is the problem which the MOQ is meant to overcome. It's simply a logical necessity that a person needs to understand the problem before the solution to it can be properly understood. And maybe you just think I'm just trying to score points while playing a game with you. Or maybe you take it as mere insult but, dude, it really is quite pointless to discuss these things with you until you understand the problem. And when you do things like confuse the MOQ with solipsism it becomes pretty clear that you don't understand the problem. I honestly don't think it would do any good to repeat these things to you any further so you're on your own now. Good luck. I mean that sincerely. _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ Hotmail®…more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
