[Arlo] Well I am sure now we will begin our journey of defining "esoteric". :-) I'd argue that you are confusing "miraculous" with "esoteric". Certainly the fundamentalist's "personal relationship with Jesus" is "miraculous", but the distinction is that for the fundamentalist Jesus is an actual person, whose description as a being created by the sexual union of God with a mortal female. Jesus is not a "metaphor" for anything, it is not a myth or a finger or a story or anything of the sort. There is no esotericism involved, what "is" is exactly and literally described in The One True Book of The One True God.
[Krimel] I think you are right I am confusing esoteric with mystical but not I think with miraculous. I have respect for mysticism but not so much for the esoteric. Believing in metaphors has too often been just an excuse for hedonism or for ignoring those who are not in the know. I think fundamentalists are right fear efforts to demythologize. The main line denominations that have gone this route have shrunk while those espousing inerrancy have grown. What many people seek from religion is certainty. By this I mean certain knowledge that everything will be ok and that no matter what someone is in control. [Krimel] The holy rollers are the ones to incorporate mystical experiences directly into their services. [Arlo] As with "faith healing", I'd say again that this is "miraculous" but not an esoteric understanding of the underlying myths (in this case, Christianity) involved. [Krimel] Faith healing may be just a flamboyant exercise in the placebo effect. But holy roller services offer ecstasy and mystical union with the divine in many other forms including dancing, passing out into trance states, laughing hysterically, (becoming drunk in the Spirit) and speaking in tongues. I suspect in some ways believing in the myth gives rise to direct participation in the myth. Even among altercallers there is a kind of hierarchy among those who truly have a personal relationship with Jesus and have attained salvation and those who are just going through the motions. Sermons on this are and on those who are "backsliders" are legion. [Arlo] By the way, although Wikipedia recognizes that many dispute certain inclusions on this list, it points out some historical esoteric tradtions. "In the scholarly literature, the term designates a series of historically related religious currents including Gnosticism, Hermetism, magic, astrology, alchemy, Rosicrucianism, the Christian Theosophy of Jacob Böhme and his followers, Illuminism, Mesmerism, Swedenborgianism, Spiritualism, and the theosophical currents associated with Helena Blavatsky and her followers." (Wikipedia). [Krimel] No offense intended here but that is a fairly long list of bullshit. I do not see where any of those practices is likely to produce anymore in the way of "enlightenment" than a literal belief in the Bible. [Krimel earlier:] But I find it hard to complain that an institution should strive to perpetuate itself. [Arlo] I don't make this complaint. But would you complain about a hospital that strives to perpetuate itself by euthanizing its patients to harvest their organs to sell on the black market? Or a school that strives to perpetuate itself by deliberately uneducating poor kids to feed the needs of sweatshops? [Krimel] Certainly I would complain about such practices but I don't see anything close to that going on. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
