Hi Mati and David M.B. Fri Feb.27
> dmb says: Even more importantly, I've discovered that there are more > than just a few anti-SOM thinkers within philosophy and within the > academic community. Mysticism is much tougher to sell there but Bo > isn't buying it either and it's pretty clear to me that this is the > true source of his distortions. The failure to take that crucial > element into the picture is exactly what has him thinking that the > distinction between thought and DQ is the same as the distinction > between subjectivity and objectivity. > Mati: I would interested in what Bo would have to say about that. Bo first says thanks for being the subject (or is it object?) of your debate. Next I say that the "DQ/Thought" dichotomy I haven't contemplated, it's the Summary's "Quality/MOQ" distinction I have questioned. because it's so uncannily resembles "Quality-as-objective/MOQ-as- subjective". And DMB can't eel out of the corner he has painted the MOQ into that its basic divide is pre-concept/concept. not the Dynamic/Static one. > Mati: Ahhh.... the standards. I had talked about creating such > standards to get to the bottom of defining intellect when I was in > Liverpool. I realize that Bodvar´s approach might be a seen as a > distortion, but again personally it speaks to me a truth that provides a > clarity in understanding intellect rather than a distortion. (I realize > that I am in the minority, but my personal integrity and commitment to > what makes sense to me does not allow me to quickly dismiss SOL until the > fat lady of reason stops singing or Bodvar can't defend (in my mind) the > legitimate questions, whichever comes first.... (snip) That there still is doubt about the SOL, or not understood what it means (that the 4th. level is SOM) puzzles me greatly. Even Mati who is genuinely interested, Platt who has been with me since the start and Andre - ditto intelligent - struggles with it. But I guess it's SOM's tough tentacles that demands that intellect is our thinking facility that won't let go. Or the intellect=intelligence fallacy. Please give me your objections. For DMB. Does not Pirsig's (in the PT letter) about the futility of any intellectual level before the Greeks (Greeks=SOM) and in LILA about the social level not having been transcended in Homer's time (meaning that what replaced Homer's time was SOM's time, ergo=intellect)? Does his "symbol manipulation" definition override that? Even if he said it might be bull... > dmb says:Oh, yea. My discrediting brush inadvertently tarred you as > well as Bo. Sorry, but the archives (and sincerity) won't allow me to take > it back. In fact, I very much want my objections to be on record because I > think Bo misleads people, especially new-comers as Dan pointed out. I just wonder why DMB sees the SOL as "misleading" when it so obviously is the young Phaedrus' original idea. > Mati: But to be fair Bo believes that it is SOM that does the > misleading, not him. And for whatever reason I see and understand > that. However MD is not only a venue of thoughts regarding MOQ but in > addition to the personalities behind those thoughts. That I believe is > the richness of these discussions. Again that's a most valid point. SOM's tentacles are tough and if ITS internal "intellect", namely MIND makes it into the MOQ (that rejects the mind/matter distinction) it's done for and that's just what DMB - and shockingly enough Pirsig at times - fall victim to. Intellect isn't mind, but the mind/matter distinction. > DMB: In this case, Bo seems quite impervious to any argument. Even > when it comes to the quotes of relevant philosophers like Pirsig, > Dewey and James, he dismisses it as SOM simply because they're read in > University courses when in fact they are all quite opposed to SOM. Dismiss? I agree with them all in their various insights of something ahead of our feeling of being subjects facing an objective world, but listen, isn't this pre-something MOQ's DQ ?????? And isn't the "subject facing objects" the static intellectual level of the MOQ?????? Thank you gentlemen Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
