Michael, Pirsig explains how the universal affirmation of Quality, kills what is meant by the term, he explains why pre-intellectual expereince may not be universally affirmed for it is the unique expereince of the individual affirmed only by the biological instincts we all share as living beings. Intellectually, yes we affirm this concept here at the forum but conceptually it points to immediate direct experience which may not be defined, nor universall affirmed, Pirsig makes this statement that even developing an MoQ runs counter to it's meaning. But, it is the only way in which it may be expressed. This is why it makes understanding what is meant so difficult, for it really is a contradiction in terms.
respectfully -Ron ________________________________ From: X Acto <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, March 9, 2009 8:06:52 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Faith/Skepticism Micheal, You seem intent on not understanding what we mean either. Quality is a word for immediate expereince. It does not require affirmation to shiver in the cold. The WORD Quality IS an affirmation. A universal understanding of meaning. What it represents comes before meanings in expereince. It does not require a shred of affirmation to respond reflexivly to the environment. The fact you keep insisting that it is an affirmation as God is an affirmation and that we defend it as theists would only shows that you concieve of Quality as a theist does. What you criticize us on is what we criticize theism on but this is not the case, Quality is a theory based on immediate expereince. Not an ideal we defend, we are simply trying to explain this and why something like affirmation is the universal affirmation of a particular personal experience. The word Quality then in effect is "affirmed" by existence itself, the very fact of be-ing. But if weaseling is all you see, then perhaps it would be best to continue this conversation at another time. For you surely do not understand it as we do. -Ron ________________________________ From: Michael Poloukhine <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sunday, March 8, 2009 11:55:59 PM Subject: Re: [MD] Faith/Skepticism > [Michael] > You ask if it takes faith to believe in light. You ask the same of "Light." > You > fail to acknowledge there is a world of difference between the two. > > [Arlo] > I'm repeating myself here, but this is not what I said. I said, you said that > both people and dogs experience quality, but to affirm it as 'Quality' takes > faith. > > I ask, the same could be said of "light"; both people and dogs experience > light, does it also take faith to "affirm" it as Light? MP: Word weasel alert. I think the root of the problem here is we have or are using different definitions of faith. Mine is merely "affirmation absent proof." (and I have said as much in EVERY post I've made in this thread.) I am beginning to see that you (and now a growing cadre of MoQ soldiers) seem to be insistent on maintaining that the only understanding of the word is the one that presumes a form of "confidence" or "trust" in something. Not sure why you are doing this. Seems like there's a static defense mechanism involved. I'm using it as "have faith of", you are using it as "have faith in." I'm using it as "believe", you are using it as "trust in." I'm not talking about faith "in" anything. I have faith "of" the existence of God. You have faith "of" the existence of Quality. Neither of us can prove the existence "of" that which we have faith any more than Leprechaunists can prove the existence of Leprechauns. MP ---- "Don't believe everything you think." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
