[Sharath]
I can't comment on pre-60's I wasn't born then...
[Arlo]
I think we certainly can comment on the pre-60s, there have been many
accounts and recording of incidents in legal records we can point to.
The point is, if all we examine is the modern day, we completely lose
sight of how we got here from there. Things have changed drastically
regarding civil rights in this country, and this is in no small part
to the efforts made by those around this time.
[Sharath]
But even with all that I am not too convinced that the entire country
purported [discrimination of non-white races].
[Arlo]
Of course they did not. But enough did to warrant those who do not to
take action. I think my point is still not being answered here, so
let me repeat it. Prior to the 60's I see little evidence that things
were improving much if at all for blacks in this country. They had to
sit in the back of buses, they had to drink from separate
waterfountains. They faced widespread aggression and assault
(according to Wikipedia, the city of Birmingham, Alabama was
nicknamed "Bombingham" due to the violence of the Klan against blacks
there). If one says "things were improving", I have two questions.
What evidence do you offer to support this? And, what if the
"natural" way of just ignoring this until it went away took six
generations, twelve, even three? At what point do we stop saying "oh
well, sucks to be you, shut up and quit whining and deal with the
fact that your never going to have the same opportunities as whites"?
At what point would intervention be justified? Never?
[Sharath]
unless someone from the other race is marrying their daughter or something
[Arlo]
Yes, there are many in this country, and some on this list, who find
the idea of interracial marriage immoral. My question is, is it "PC"
to "force" people to recognize interracial marriages? Would it be
moral for a county or state to declare that within its borders
interracial marriages will not be recognized? Or would that be immoral?
[Sharath]
My logic is simple - if majority of the people in a region did really
practice the extreme form of discrimination then I'm pretty sure it
would've still existed (whether or not someone smart and intelligent
in the govt wanted to get rid of this).
[Arlo]
By forcing it underground, and by refusing to provide discrimination
and racism social support, you neuter it of its power. And in doing
so, over time, I believe things have improved. It hasn't been
perfect, by any stretch, but the condition for minorities today is
much, much better than it was fifty years ago. Of course, it takes
time. Of course, xenophobia continues to be manipulate by ideologues
to secure their power.
Again I offer my personal experience with the changing tolerance and
respect towards the mentally-handicapped. In my tenth grade year, I
saw a young boy ridiculed and harrassed to the point where he had to
leave school and his family move away. No one did anything, not the
school administrators, not the parents, not the community, no one.
Two years later, another mentally-handicapped child came to our
school. There was what we now call "sensitivity workshops", ridicule
of this child about his condition was met with zero tolerance by
administrators, other students were "forced" to work with this child
in small group activities. And you know what, it was better for him.
Today, with my daughter herself in tenth grade, I ask her if people
even still use the slur "retard", she said "no, well every now and
then someone uses it to try to be funny, but no one laughs".I'd say
that is amazing progress, that I would attribute directly to certain
"PC" initiatives designed to foster tolerance and respect for the
mentally-handicapped. These include not only the "coerced workshops",
but a media campaign designed to "humanize" these children and bring
the way they had been treated for decades to light.
If you say, it had nothing to do with PC, then what DID it have to do
with? Is it just coincidence that after decades of no-to-little
improvement, we suddenly had such extreme improvement in one
generation? No, its not entirely beaten. I imagine many
mentally-handicapped children are still the victims of verbal abuse,
alienation, discrimination and vicious and hurtful attacks. But I see
improvement. Plain and simple.
[Sharath]
Tell me why don't you ( I assume you are a white man from the US)
practice discrimination or do your friends or your parents generation
do ? or are you trying to be just PC :P ?
[Arlo]
That's like asking me if the only reason I don't kill people is
because of the laws against it. Obviously, the answer is "no". And
its so for many people. The "law" against killing is there to ensure
that the few who would kill do not, and when they do to receive
punishment. If we removed the law, would you kill? I'd say you likely
would not. Nor would most people. But a few would. And that should
not be acceptable. To continue this thought, I really wish we lived
in a world where you could remove the laws against murder and no one
would murder. Its utopic to say the least. But until we get there, we
kinda need those laws to ensure that the few people who would are
punished, and to say that we as a people vociferously make a stand
that killing is bad.
[Sharath]
but I think even in the 60's there were white people who were
supporting the black movement
[Arlo]
Of course there were. Where did I say differently? I don't like the
"all" or "none" arguments, they never hold water.
[Sharath]
But c'mon the way the society is setup there is bound to be
discrimination. I am a short guy *but* posses more than an average
basketball skill, I'm of course discriminated by basketball players at the gym
[Arlo]
Height is a valid component of success in basketball, and as such
"discriminating" among players by considerations of height is hardly
immoral. But what if those same players at the gym discriminated
against you because you were "colored"? The color of your skin has
nothing whatsoever to do as a predictor of success in basketball, and
hence that discrimination is immoral.
[Sharath]
Everyone is discriminated in some way or the other. [ gay, single,
women, christians, chinese, blacks, mexicans, whites, teens, seniors,
teachers, intelligent, stupid, priests, beggars, artists, politicians
the list covers everyone no ?]
[Arlo]
First you have to separate out legitimate discrimination from
non-legitimate discrimination. If I was a potential pool of pianists
for playing at Carnegie Hall, and I didn't get the job because I
(quite frankly) suck at playing the piano, that's fine. But if I
didn't get it because I was hispanic, or jewish, or christian, then
that would be non-legitimate discrimination.
Second, yes, everyone faces prejudice for immoral reasons. This does
not mean we should ever excuse it or condone it. If a christian is
denied a job because he is a christian, this is as abhorrent as if a
black is denied a job for his skin color. If a senior is denied
service at a restaurant because of his age, this is as abhorrent as
if you were denied service because of your ethnicity.
[Sharath]
I frankly don't know what the solution is but I don't believe govt
can enforce laws for forcing business or organizations to hire people
from different races.
[Arlo]
Well given the immobility of minorities before these laws, I'm open
to alternative solutions. As I said before, one person had once
suggested to me that we should remove affirmative action but force
companies to disclose their policies on their products. That way you,
as an Indian, would be able to make an informed decision when you
walk into the store and see a can of Coke that says "Coca Cola
refuses to hire Indians, as it considers them inferior people" on the side.
[Sharath]
I think there are bigger problems than race discrimination right now
at least. I feel greed has a lot to do with why there is an unfair
wealth distribution in the world.
[Arlo]
You may be right.
[Sharath]
And the sort of greed where people just don't have control and buy
and live in excess for no real reason.
[Arlo]
This sort of thing was touched on in ZMM. I'd agree with it being a
problem. Maybe that could go into another thread at some point.
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