Bo said to dmb: Look to Matt about the Greek thinkers as the "first intellectuals" and that the Sophists were part of the intellectual movement. If the subjective horn was/is more "mean" than the objective, yes, I tend to see it that way, but calling it "dynamic" - no, it's static intellectual value.
dmb says:Matt has never seen the value of the point I was making about the dynamic. That's also what I thought he left out of his essay. Each of you has your own reason, but you both disagree with me on this. I think it's really obvious that Pirsig does too. Look for the opposition of "fixed" and "ever-changing". You don't have to be a philosopher to see that as a description of "static" and "dynamic". Plus there's the dharma and the arete of the Sophist. There is the fact that SOM was already pre-figured at the social level, including the grammatical structure of the language. And then there's the point that Plato was an intellectual but not a SOMist. "...Plato's Good was a fixed and eternal and unmoving Idea, whereas for the rhetoricians it was not an Idea at all. The Good was not a form of reality. It was reality itself, ever changing, ultimately unknowable in any kind of fixed, rigid way." But you just go ahead and believe whatever you like, Bo. Nothing I say will make any difference there. Matt said:I think Bo's continued assertion that SOM is the intellectual level is wrong on a historical and conceptual level. He concedes that it is wrong on the textual level, so there's very little point in emphasizing that, but on the side of history, I don't think anything like the modern subjective/objective distinction existed in Greek thought (though its original impetus is clearly traceable to there) and to characterize as Bo does is too excessively misleading, to the point of being counterproductive. _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail®. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd1_052009 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
