Hi Bo,
Well you ignore all
my arguments and bring a LC quote:...
Steve:
I don't mean to ignore your arguments. But it seems like you are
using the MOQ language so differently from the way I am that it's
hard for me to find a point of entry to argue with you.
Bo:
What the heck has the mind/matter controversy to do with the MOQ?
Its DQ/SQ distinction has replaced SOM's Mind/Matter and (as the
only possible opening) has made SOM its own intellectual level.
Steve:
I wasn't trying to bring in any new controversy. I was just defending
DMB's claim that DQ/sq amounts to reality/concept where reality
simply refers to the conceptually unknown.
Bo:
The true MOQ says that Quality is primary ("comes first") and its
first
"product" being the inorganic level and then the biological ...etc.
and
finally the intellectual level where the S/O split (and its many
offshots,
mind/matter among them) are its static value patterns. Then Pirsig
manages to say that "ideas" produces matter, if so ideas also produce
ideas (mind) and all this goes haywire.
Steve:
Pirsig said that Quality produces ideas.
Bo:
And then the reference to the
"scientific community" (physics) that "..... invariably presumes that
matter comes first and produces ideas" (mind) Sure, it's science's
(intellect's) very business to presume that the OBJECTIVE part is
primary and the SUBJECTIVE is secondary. Then he says " ..to
further the confusion the MOQ says that the idea that matter comes
first is a high quality idea". Yes, the intellectual level is the
highest
static value, but its patterns are not IDEAS but the S/O split.
Why this terribly convoluted way to arrive at something that the true
MOQ clarifies so infinitely easier?
Steve:
It sounds like the BoMoQ's intellectual level contains a single
pattern, the S/O distinction. I've harped on this before, but I think
the difficulty lies in understanding what a pattern is. If you take
"habit" as a synonym for "pattern" I think it might clear some things
up. Distinguishing between subjective and objective knowledge is just
one of many intellectual habits (habits of mind) that humans have
dynamically evolved as tools for coping with the world. The MOQ
itself is another of those tools.
Well I only know too well, it's his misconceived mindish intellectual
level that has concepts or ideas as its patterns.
I don't think the mind is a level. I think you can pretty much equate
intellect with mind but you can't equate the set of all intellectual
patterns (i.e. the intellectual level) with mind since mind has a
dynamic component.
Best,
Steve
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