Steve: I wasn't trying to bring in any new controversy. I was just defending DMB's claim that DQ/sq amounts to reality/concept where reality simply refers to the conceptually unknown.
[Krimel] Just to jump in and clarify something here. To the extent that "reality" is infinitely divisible, constantly changing, and unpredictable I agree that that is what DQ means. To the extent that concepts are static descriptions of this dynamic flux, order emerging from chaos, I agree that that is what SQ means. But that is not how Dave sees it. He thinks of DQ as a sense of Value, as the perception of "betterness." His is a purely subjective stance. Steve: Pirsig said that Quality produces ideas. [Krimel] Pirsig's metaphors often include more than enough lack for people to tie into nooses and hang themselves. Steve: It sounds like the BoMoQ's intellectual level contains a single pattern, the S/O distinction. I've harped on this before, but I think the difficulty lies in understanding what a pattern is. If you take "habit" as a synonym for "pattern" I think it might clear some things up. Distinguishing between subjective and objective knowledge is just one of many intellectual habits (habits of mind) that humans have dynamically evolved as tools for coping with the world. The MOQ itself is another of those tools. [Krimel] Bo is utterly confused about the relationship of concepts to percepts. There is not sensible way to understand the claim that the MoQ is not a set of concepts. You are on to something with "habits" though. A habit is a pattern of behavior. We have habitual patterns of thought as well. I think what Pirsig is going on about is being ruled by those habits. This happens best when we are not even aware that the habits exist. The only way to overcome a habit is to recognize it as a habit. [Steve] I don't think the mind is a level. I think you can pretty much equate intellect with mind but you can't equate the set of all intellectual patterns (i.e. the intellectual level) with mind since mind has a dynamic component. [Krimel] Right again. Intellectual patterns are concepts. We have spent the past 10,000 years since the invention of writing, encoding them into static patterns accessible by all who can decode them. Those concepts live or die, grow or wither, to the degree that minds find them useful. When they become useless they often gain a second life as mythical reminders of where we have been. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
